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Old 01-01-2004, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Tooley
I guess the point that I want to make with that post is this, EVERY TIME I PUT A HIGHER FLOWING HEAD ON A CAR IT MAKES MORE POWER EVERYWHERE. I have put heads on engines that I thought would be way too big and they were awesome. For example, we have 3 CNC programs for these Neal Brodix small block Ford heads, a 279cc,295cc and a 311cc My buddy Sam Vincent has a 440 cu in sbf, he wanted the biggest one for his N2O engine, I thought it would kill the power as these heads were designed for 2200HP turbo engines. On our chassis dyno he put down 700 RWHP ON MOTOR, and 1100 RWHP on the spray. It went 7.80's @ 178, 154 mhp on motor. So if you can make a port bigger AND MAKE IT FLOW MORE AIR, then it will generally make more power.
Nice! in what car?

It would be interesting to compare the bench results. And see where the power is? The port design needs airflow AND air speed. It´s obvious that your engine can take care of that amount of air your heads can flow.. You haven't reach the limit for your engine yet.

Ok if we turn it this way... the more air the more power right? In that case it must be easy to increase the power beyond everything!!..

Well then it must be very easy, to make our own heads, with a 10" inlet runners.. why not make it 20"? more flow means more power right?

Engines running middle 8's and faster must have an extream velocity.. the supersonic speed must be reached long time ago.. this opens up the the need for more air (flow)..
in other words bigger runners. The inlet runner and valvesize must be suited for the type of engine and cui.

Last edited by ZoDDy; 01-01-2004 at 09:47 PM.
Old 01-01-2004, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by ZoDDy
Nice! in what car?

It would be interesting to compare the bench results. And see where the power is? The port design needs airflow AND air speed. It´s obvious that your engine can take care of that amount of air your heads can flow.. You haven't reach the limit for your engine yet.

Ok if we turn it this way... the more air the more power right? In that case it must be easy to increase the power beyond everything!!..

Well then it must be very easy, to make our own heads, with a 10" inlet runners.. why not make it 20"? more flow means more power right?

Engines running middle 8's and faster must have an extream velocity.. the sound of speed must be reached long time ago.. this opens up the the need for more air (flow)..
in other words bigger runners. The inlet runner and valvesize must be suited for the type of engine and cui.
We have tested numerous combinations on our dyno as well as others, everything from street cars to race cars. The higher flowing heads have always made more power.

10" ??? Why would you make a runner entry bigger then the intake manifold???

And on my car with a little 346 engine, making peak power at 6500 I had a head that flowed 300 @ .600" and my new head flowed 320 @ .600"

Sound of speed?? Do you mean speed of sound. This is called sonic veloctiy and NOTHING can pull airflow past sonic, NOTHING.

There is too much misinformation in the world. It would be great if some people spent more time reading and learning.
Old 01-01-2004, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Tooley
I think you missed the point. We just took part in a dyno test of Ford heads in Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords magizine and our heads were the highest flowing and they made the most power. You said "high flowing heads can cause bad things in engine" or something like that. The point I was making is you can theorize this stuff to death, but until you get it on the flow bench, dyno and the track, then it is just a buch of BS. Unless a porter has done something "goofy" to make a port flow more air, (like cutting down the short turn of the intake) otherwise it will almost always make more power with more airflow.
Ohh No i didn´t miss the point.. As long as the engine a capable to keep the airspeed up, the high airflow will be a good thing...
I´m on the track and in the flowbench and at the dyno..
I had a couple of heads that made more power even if they flowed less
same CR same carbs same exh. No difference than the runner..

I also tried that on my 1200cc bike.. I made my inletrunner smaller.. approx 30% smaller. It was a choke point on the floor of the runner. 6 RWHP directly
in the bench..

If more airflow makes more power.. why don't all the racers make runners in the size of a melon then? It must be a smart trick coz it will increase the airflow.. make it 2 melons.. it must be twice the performance
Old 01-01-2004, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Tooley
We have tested numerous combinations on our dyno as well as others, everything from street cars to race cars. The higher flowing heads have always made more power.

10" ??? Why would you make a runner entry bigger then the intake manifold???

And on my car with a little 346 engine, making peak power at 6500 I had a head that flowed 300 @ .600" and my new head flowed 320 @ .600"

Sound of speed?? Do you mean speed of sound. This is called sonic veloctiy and NOTHING can pull airflow past sonic, NOTHING.

There is too much misinformation in the world. It would be great if some people spent more time reading and learning.
Ahh sorry i meant speed of sound, i have to blame the xmas and all the beer and food..

well i've done lot´s of testing and i can read belive it or not

Super sonic.. well that's what the scientist says..
I read an article about motorcykle engines and this is what they say..


"flow becomes really turbulent, creating a huge nozzle effect" At supersonic speeds and even exceed supersonic speeds"
So if they say that they must tested that the airspeed reach supersonic speeds right?

It seem that u r very updated and read very much..
So where is the limit? You say more
flow = more power .... So if that's true...

If i use a Chevy 454 maximum ported superflowing head on a Volvo B18 engine from 1964 i will gain some serious power??..
It will sure flow like hell! hehehe

Or why will my engine run like S*** when using too big carbs? They sure flow like hell too? Flow is power?.. Flowerpower

If the flow was the only key to power.. I´m sure everybody would use 10" runners, inlets and valves.
Old 01-01-2004, 10:09 PM
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I almost hate to post on this subject...but here goes.

We use a engine dyno to test "great heads"
I use a A B A format.
Engine is a 346 with valve notches and ASA camshaft.
I purchase heads from alot of different sources.
I install test heads on engine, warm oil and water to 180-190 degrees F
Make 6 back to back pulls at 12.5 to 13.0 AF
whatever AF best power is made is repeated for 6 more back to back runs.
Cool engine and install our benchmark heads.
Repeat warm up and 6 back to back runs
cool down
Install heads being tested again.
Repeat warm up and 6 back to back runs.
Test over

All 3 sections of testing ALWAYS done on same day.

Most times good average flow numbers make best average HP. ( average between 2500-7000)

Kurt
Old 01-01-2004, 10:55 PM
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Brian & 427 are right on the mark correctly ported heads that flow more air will make more power ~99.99 percent of the time. The sole exception I'm aware of is if specific porting tricks to re-suspend the fuel are used. Sometimes the re-suspension techniques can cost a little airflow but more power will be made due to higher efficiency due to a better mix and burn. This is the other side of head porting that sometimes gets over looked. Testing to see how the fuel "hits" in the runner/chamber and developing for best atomization of fuel & air can help power as much or more than another 5 cfm of airflow in some cases.
Old 01-02-2004, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian Tooley
I guess the point that I want to make with that post is this, EVERY TIME I PUT A HIGHER FLOWING HEAD ON A CAR IT MAKES MORE POWER EVERYWHERE
I can't (and won't) try to argue against that statement. If that is your experience, it is no more than that - your experience. It is not a universal truth. Maybe I am the only one around here old enough to remember the canonical counter example - Ford's old 302 heads. Ports that looked like tunnels and valves that looked like manhole covers. Flowed like a dream. And if you could twist the engine to 12000, they made monster HP. But everyone that ever made any power and kept the engine together, filled the ports in and reduced the flow.
Old 01-02-2004, 09:42 AM
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Here is a nice article on flow benches from Buddy Reher of Reher-Morrison.

http://www.rehermorrison.com/techTalk/16.htm

Our era is often referred to as the Information Age, but not all of the available information is necessarily useful. I am beginning to think that flow benches should be labeled with a government warning: "Caution! Excessive reliance on flow numbers may be harmful to your engine!"

I'm kidding, of course. Used wisely, a flow bench can be a useful tool in engine development, just like a timing light or a dynamometer. Unfortunately, some racers believe that a flow bench is the ultimate answer machine. When the subject is cylinder heads, the four words I dread to hear are, "What do they flow?" Novice racers and magazine writers share a fixation about airflow. The mistaken belief that "more is better" is often the false assumption that produces an underperforming engine.

I learned this lesson myself when my partners Buddy Morrison and Lee Shepherd built our first flow bench in the mid-'70s. It was a great contraption that could just about suck the windows out of our rented shop on Arkansas Lane. While this homebuilt test bench boosted our racing program, it certainly didn't make us engine experts overnight - even though we initially thought we had found the key to the vault of knowledge.

We had been racing 287-cubic-inch small-blocks in various Modified and Comp classes before we decided to make the move to Pro Stock with a 331ci engine. (Students of Pro Stock history will recall that the '70s was the era of weight breaks for various engine and chassis combinations.) We were determined to be "scientific" in our approach, and reasoned that a 15 percent increase in engine displacement demanded a 15 percent increase in airflow. We dutifully enlarged the ports, increased the valve diameters, and hit our airflow targets. We set off to conquer the world of Pro Stock - but our pride and joy was a dog.

After struggling to even qualify in our initial outings, we pulled an old pair of Modified heads off the shelf. Lee worked on the ports for an afternoon, we bolted them on our Pro Stock short-block, and we qualified fifth at Englishtown in our next race.

If you went strictly by the flow numbers, those heads would hardly enough air to satisfy a respectable big-inch bracket racing engine - and yet they were magic on the race track. That was when I realized that cfm isn't everything. It's a lesson that I have seen repeated countless times in the last 25 years.

A flow bench measures air movement in a very rudimentary way - steady-state flow at a constant depression (vacuum). Obviously the conditions that exist inside a running engine are quite different. The flow bench can't simulate the effects of the pistons going up and down, the reversion pulses as the valves open and close, the sonic waves that resonate inside the runners, the inertia of the fuel droplets, and all of the other phenomena that influence engine performance in the real world. When you flow test a cylinder head, you are simply measuring how far you can move the liquid in a manometer.

The bigger you make a port, the more it flows. That's hardly shocking news. Bolt a sewer pipe onto a flow bench and it will generate terrific flow numbers. So should we use ports as big as sewer pipes on our race cars? The flow bench says we should - the time slip says something completely different.

If airflow were everything, we would all use the longest duration camshafts we could find - after all, more duration means more flow. In fact we know that there is a finite limit to how long the valves can be open before performance
suffers. That is because the valve events have to be in harmony with the rest of the engine.


The same principle applies to cylinder heads. Simple airflow capacity should never be the first consideration in evaluating cylinder heads. Characteristics that are far more important include air speed, port cross section, port volume and shape, and the relationship between the size of the throat and the valve seat. If these attributes are wrong, you can work forever on the flow bench and not overcome the fundamental flaws.

Here is a do-it-yourself example: Turn on a garden hose and the water will dribble out a couple of feet. Now put a nozzle on the hose and the water will spray across your backyard. The water pressure and volume haven't changed, but the velocity has increased dramatically. Now think about the air and fuel going into your engine's cylinders. Which would you prefer: slow and lazy or fast and responsive?

An engineer will tell you that an engine requires a prescribed amount of air and fuel to produce "X" horsepower. In a perfect world, that may be true - but we race with imperfect engines. The shape and cross-sectional area of
the runners are absolutely critical to performance. For example, I have two sets of Pro Stock cylinder heads that produce nearly identical flow numbers, yet one pair produces nearly 150 more horsepower at 9,200 rpm than the other. The flow bench can't tell the difference between them, but the engine certainly can.

There are software programs that claim to be able to predict an engine's performance based on airflow numbers. Unfortunately, a critical shortcoming of many of these programs is that they are based on inaccurate information or false assumptions. A computer is an excellent calculator, but it is not an experienced engine builder. The software doesn't know whether a port's short-turn radius is shaped properly, whether the flow is turbulent at critical valve lifts, or whether the flame speed is fast enough. Racers have a tendency to believe that computers are infallible, so they accept the software's solutions as gospel, when in fact they may be badly flawed.

Textbooks would lead you to believe that an exhaust to intake flow ratio of 80 percent is ideal - yet a typical Pro Stock head has exhaust ports that flow less than 60 percent of the intake runners. You can improve the exhaust flow
tremendously with about 40 minutes of work with a hand grinder - but the supposed improvements will just about kill the engine's on-track performance. I know because I've been there.

We have also learned that low-lift flow (meaning anything below .400-inch valve lift in a Pro Stock engine with a .900-inch lift camshaft) is relatively unimportant. Think about the valve events in a racing engine: From the point when the valve first moves off its seat until it reaches mid-lift, the piston is either going the wrong way (that is, it is rising in the cylinder) or it's parked near TDC. The piston doesn't begin to move away from the combustion chamber with enough velocity to lower the pressure in the cylinder until the valve is nearly halfway open. Consequently it is high-lift flow that really matters in a drag racing engine.

The shape of the combustion chamber also has a significant impact on performance. A conventional chamber with deep reliefs around the valve seats and a relatively flat valve seat angle can produce terrific flow at .200 to .300-inch valve lift. Today a state-of-the-art chamber typically has 55-degree valve seats and steep walls that guide the air/fuel mixture into the cylinder to enhance high-lift flow.
This doesn't mean that every racer needs state-of-the-art Pro Stock cylinder heads - along with the high maintenance they require. The heads have to match the application. Conventional combustion chambers and 45-degree valve seats are just fine for a dependable, low-maintenance racing engine that will run a full season between overhauls.

The classic Hemi combustion chamber is capable of producing impressive flow figures, but it's not going to make impressive power. Engine technology in all forms of motorsports is converging around smaller, high-efficiency combustion chamber designs. You can see the result in lower brake specific fuel consumption (BSFC) numbers, which indicate improved engine efficiency. Twenty years ago, a racing engine with a .48 BSFC was considered very good; today's competition engines produce BSFC numbers in the neighborhood of .35. This means that a given quantity of fuel is being atomized and burned more effectively to produce more power. A cylinder head's combustion efficiency can't be measured on a flow bench, yet it has a huge impact on performance.

I am not against flow benches; in fact, we use computerized flow benches daily at Reher-Morrison Racing Engines. What I am against is over reliance on flow numbers as the primary measurement of a cylinder head's performance. A flow bench is a valuable tool that can help a racer fine tune a combination - but it is not the ultimate authority.
Old 01-02-2004, 09:43 AM
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Now I like flow numbers. Heck I have done a bunch of research compiling flow number on heads to look at not only peak lift, but also low and midlift numbers. I have also tried to look at the differences between benches, etc... when looking at this data. In addition, I have talked with both end users and installers about differnet cylinder heads they have installed. Here is probably the most striking example I have seen to date... I removed the shop names to keep this from turning into a mud-slinging match between shops. I think flow nbeches a re a great tool, but they are only a tool. They are not the be all or end all of measuring devices. Anyone who says to base all decision making on flow numbers alone is seriously mis-informed....


I was speaking with (a very well known cylinder head porter) a few days ago about alot of these other heads on the market. He has had a few sets of (brand X heads) in his shop and has kinda seen what we have found as well: they flow well on the bench (as good as his in house head), but don't seem to make the same power on the dyno,etc. From talking with him, he was mentioning that (brand X) removes material in areas that will show a gain on the flow bench, but will not make anymore power on the dyno. He says they are big in the wrong spots and too small in others.

As an example, a set of (brand X) stage 2s 5.3l heads were installed on a car that had all the bolt ons and a TR224 cam. It made 379/370 or so before adding the heads. After the heads, the car did 413/385 after tuning. A week before, a set of (the well known porter's) stage 2 5.3l heads on a car that already had the TR224 cam as well and the IDENTICAL mods as the other (brand X) car (FLPs, LS6 intake, ASP, stock rear/4:10s,etc). Both dynoed the exact same before swapping heads on (the curves practically overlayed one another). This car pulled 443/418 with the (well known porter's heads) . On the flow bench, the (brand X) actually flowed better from .100-.550, while (well known porter's) heads flowed slightly better past this. Same thing on the exhaust side.

This just goes to show that a flow bench is an excellent tool, but not something that should be used as the determing factor in how a head will perform when put on a motor. The CC volumes were identical on the two heads, so compression difference wasn't an issue.

Last edited by J-Rod; 01-02-2004 at 11:37 AM.
Old 01-02-2004, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by critter
I can't (and won't) try to argue against that statement. If that is your experience, it is no more than that - your experience. It is not a universal truth. Maybe I am the only one around here old enough to remember the canonical counter example - Ford's old 302 heads. Ports that looked like tunnels and valves that looked like manhole covers. Flowed like a dream. And if you could twist the engine to 12000, they made monster HP. But everyone that ever made any power and kept the engine together, filled the ports in and reduced the flow.
Those intake port openings were the size of baseballs and flowed close to 300 cfm at around 240cc intake port volume. We have 185cc SBF intake ports that outflow that. They filled in the ports and maintained or increased the airflow. The other point there is that is was a completely different engine, a Cleveland versus a Windsor. It had huge openings and the Windsor did not. Consequently the Windsor is what most Ford heads are based on. The modern heads that are Cleveland based (Yates, etc.) still have smaller port openings then the original heads.

How big would someone make a LS1 intake entry if the intake manifold is plastic and has not been ported?? No bigger then the intake would be the answer. Any porter with common sense is not going to make his LS1 port openings the size of a Cleveland SBF head.

How big are you going to make a LS1 intake port without compromising the integrity of the head?, i.e. hitting the water jackets and spring pockets, not much bigger then 225-230cc (non LS6). The point I was trying to make is that you should flow them and then cc the runner, theres a very good chance (99.99%) that if this test went down, and the intake port openings were realistic, then the best flowing head would in deed probably make the most power on the engine. I assumed we were talking specifically about LS1 heads. Not any other head, because in that case you would be correct. You can obviously over port just about anything.

Lets say you have a good baseline head, a head that is 225cc and flows 300cfm. If you do a new port that is 10% bigger but only flows 2% more air it is more then likely a loser. But if you make it 5% bigger (236cc) and it flows 5% more air (315 cfm), then more then likely it will make more power. You obviously get to the point of diminishing returns, i.e. the bigger, higher flowing head makes no more power, but I have yet to see it make less.

Measuring airspeed was mentioned also, if you are working with a given head, with a given runner length (i.e. only LS1's) then you can simply calculate a airflow coefficient, (rather then trying to measure air velocity with a velocity probe on the flowbench) The formula would be airflow/port volume. So our head of 300cfm/225cc gives you a CD of 1.333 cfm/cc, its a pretty lame deal, but can be useful when comparing different runner shapes. This formula can not be used to compare SBC heads vs. SBF vs. anything else. Anytime a runner changes length or port opening height then it throws the diplacement off. For example our Twisted Wedge heads we do for the Fords have a relocated valve centerline and therefore throws off the volume of the head,(it measures smaller due to the runner being shorter).

There is also another CD number which you can look at which I personally like to use better that is looking at the velocity around the circumference of the valve, using the valve "curtain area". The formula is flow/curtain area i.e. at .100" lift the curtain area for a 2.02 valve is Pi*radius squared*lift or 3.14159* 1.01^2*.100=.320 sq. in. if the flow was 65cfm then the CD at .100" would be 203.1 cfm/sq in, 135 cfm @ .200" would be 210.6 cfm/sq in, etc. This way you can start to evaluate efficiencies of valve jobs and bigger valves, but it is not the bottom line.

I have been thinking about this, and who we could send heads to and I have decided that Thunder Racing would be about the best choice. Simply because they are highly respected, have a flow bench and dyno, do not port heads so you don't have to worry about someone stealing port designs and overall of high integrity. So what about it guys?? Anyone else up for the challenge??
Old 01-02-2004, 11:48 AM
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Here is my original email on the idea from 2002


Subject: An idea
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 07:50:40 -0600

Hi,

I am going to run this idea by you, and I guess you can forward it out if you feel it has any merit.

I'd like to do a test, but I am going to need some help. What I would like to do is have a shootout. My idea was to solicit each of the major vendors for a set of heads and their camshafts, and have a H/C shootout.

Very simply, we flow all the heads on the same bench. We have folks look at the ports and review the heads from an overall standpoint. That way there is no variation.

For the second portion the vendors provide whatever camshafts they wish to have tested. We put them on a dyno mule LS1 engine and run them on an engine dyno. This would eliminate all the other variations. I know that we have the facilities to do the work. It would be a matter of whether or not they would be willing to allow us the use of their facilities. I am willing to volunteer my time to the project at no cost, as I would just like to see this sort of test done.

I didn't want to post this publicly yet, I wanted to run it by you and a few others and get your opinion of the viability of such an idea. I know that the shops have a business to run, so I don't want to interfere with that. I figured that a lot of this could be handled off hours by some of us, as long as they will give us access to the facilities. If they want to help, great. I also thought that if the folks who did the test were not associated with a certain shop it would help reduce the possibility of people raising the issue of fairness or partiality in the test.

I think most of the gear out there is close, but it would be nice to be able to say, here is what X, Y, and Z did...

And, if this is just totally off the wall and unworkable, then let me know. But as I said, before I went very far with it, I just wanted to run it past you for your input.
The Response:

You could pretty much give up on that idea. The results will never be accurate. Shops can (and will) work up a badass set of heads, which may or may not represent "off the shelf" versions available to customers. Also, this type of testing has more potential to hurt than it does to help. What does it possibly do? It might bring one shop to the cream of the crop, thus

making all the competitors suffer. I don't think many shops will gamble that, and like I said those test samples might not be accurate representations of what is available.

You are just better off going with the shop you trust, and paying attention to results on an average. You will notice some shops only have good running

"shop" cars that belong to the owners of shops, while others have extensive customer representation with good results. I know which ones I'd be more inclined to believe are "normal".

I can't speak for the shops involved would think about this. I think they feel just fine and confident with their products and reputation without needing a test like this. They are sitting pretty right now, they have nothing to gain here and only the potential to lose. Its the little dogs out there that can gain from this. Make sense?
So anyhow, you can see some of the valid reason why folks might not be interested in trying this. Even with just heads. The only way to get a fair test would be to have a few shops order heads under the guise of "regular heads" for customers, and then send them to wherever (Thunder is fine with me) for testing. Trust me, I am not aginst testing a set of heads on the bench, and on a motor. Its just ensuring you don't skew the filed when someone sends a set of "ringers" to win the whole thing...
Old 01-02-2004, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by J-Rod
Here is a nice article on flow benches from Buddy Reher of Reher-Morrison.

http://www.rehermorrison.com/techTalk/16.htm

I read this a few years ago, it applys to full blown race engines much more then street engines. I have heard this type of info elsewhere, but have not experienced it with the approximatly 2000 or so sets of heads we have done, but then most of those went on street cars. I would be willing to pay TR to dyno some heads as well so that we could put the whole thing to rest. The point that "ringer" heads will be sent. We just took part in a head shootout that we just won in MM & FF. Not a direct, who can port a head the best, but rather what is the potential of different heads ported by different porters. Of course everyone sent the best that they could muster, even the AFR CNC ported head had been touched up. So the point I am trying to make is that the test would demonstrate the BEST a porter is capable of.
Old 01-02-2004, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Tooley
I read this a few years ago, it applys to full blown race engines much more then street engines. I have heard this type of info elsewhere, but have not experienced it with the approximatly 2000 or so sets of heads we have done, but then most of those went on street cars. I would be willing to pay TR to dyno some heads as well so that we could put the whole thing to rest. The point that "ringer" heads will be sent. We just took part in a head shootout that we just won in MM & FF. Not a direct, who can port a head the best, but rather what is the potential of different heads ported by different porters. Of course everyone sent the best that they could muster, even the AFR CNC ported head had been touched up. So the point I am trying to make is that the test would demonstrate the BEST a porter is capable of.
Agreed that the BEST a porter can do, but is "Joe Consumer" getting the best a porter can do, or are they getting something much less than that. I mean come on. If you have guy doing sloppy work on finishing up the bowls, and they do a lousy valve job, the best ports in the world wont help as the head is going to flow like crap. Thats one of the main things I see with most of the CNC heads is the finish work. You can take the heads and "fix" them, but Most folks don't know how to do a tricky valve job that flows like crazy. you average enthusiast want s heads that work out of the box. He also doesn't want to gamble that his heads were "Monday Morning hangover" heads.


Again, much of what Buddy said is simple fact no matter what engine you have. Yes, some of the specific information regaring mid lift in a .900 lift BBC may not exactly apply to a LS1. But, the column of air in an intake tract of any engine no matter what it is behave differnetly than it will on a flow bench. The bench only measures an uninterrupted column of air moving. Now, open and close that valve 3000 or 4000 times per minute and see if the properties don't change a bit. Its a tool, but a dyno test will help show what really works in the real world....

Last edited by J-Rod; 01-02-2004 at 03:02 PM.
Old 01-02-2004, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by J-Rod
Again, much of what Buddy said is simple fact no matter what engine you have. Yes, some of the specific information regaring mid lift in a .900 lift BBC may not exactly apply to a LS1. But, the column of air in an intake tract of any engine no matter what it is behave differnetly than it will on a flow bench. The bench only measures an uninterrupted column of air moving. Now, open and close that valve 6000 or 7000 times per second and see if the properties don't change a bit. Its a tool, but a dyno test will help show what really works in the real world....
This type of power loss is most common on engines with alot of intake cam duration that can allow this intake reversion. On a street car with relatively low duration it behaves differently. Also a street car typically has a longer runner that tends to inhibit this same type of intake tract reversion, the mass of air is far more then if it were a short runner. This is the basis for the theories that I cam up with on our SBF Renegade engines (306 with .550" hyd roller, street heads) that run 8's in the quarter. For example, the dedicated nitrous head I put on my car picked it up 90 RWHP on the same shot, if the engine had huge exhaust duration like some of our race stuff does (300+ degrees @ .050") then the difference is more like 10-20 RWHP.

BTW, at 6000 rpm the intake valve only opens and closes 3000 times per minute or 50 times per second.
Old 01-02-2004, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by critter
I can't (and won't) try to argue against that statement. If that is your experience, it is no more than that - your experience. It is not a universal truth.

That's a fact!

As soon as you think like this, (universal truths) you limit your creativity!
Maybe I am the only one around here old enough to remember the canonical counter example - Ford's old 302 heads.

Hey... I remember them... Does this make me old too?
Ports that looked like tunnels and valves that looked like manhole covers. Flowed like a dream. And if you could twist the engine to 12000, they made monster HP. But everyone that ever made any power and kept the engine together, filled the ports in and reduced the flow.


Balance of parts... That's the key...

Our little gang have built up many "naturally aspirated" combinations that were not using any "magical" 300 cfm head packages nor one of a kind pieces and they blew away the big flowing, trick of the week stuff where it counts, at the race track!

Like I said.. Balance of parts...

As for the criteria of the test... forget dyno or track testing... It's worthless!

Every cylinder head on this "list" will not respond the same with the identical camshaft profile installed... If you were to evaluate every cam profile for every cylinder head tested, add in everyone's personal camshaft theories... well... who knows how reliable (and expensive) would a dyno test really be???

My personal recommendation (for what little it means) would be to test them, on the industry standard SF600, using a 3.905" bore, a 1-3/4" commercially available exhaust pipe and a common radiused entry. No clay or megaphone pipes, just a simple group of readily available tools... Repeatability!!!

Just one guy's opinion though...

Ed
Old 01-02-2004, 08:06 PM
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flow w/intake can also help provide good data to help evaluate the heads/valve job too
Old 01-02-2004, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by 427
I almost hate to post on this subject...but here goes.

We use a engine dyno to test "great heads"
I use a A B A format.
Engine is a 346 with valve notches and ASA camshaft.
I purchase heads from alot of different sources.
I install test heads on engine, warm oil and water to 180-190 degrees F
Make 6 back to back pulls at 12.5 to 13.0 AF
whatever AF best power is made is repeated for 6 more back to back runs.
Cool engine and install our benchmark heads.
Repeat warm up and 6 back to back runs
cool down
Install heads being tested again.
Repeat warm up and 6 back to back runs.
Test over

All 3 sections of testing ALWAYS done on same day.

Most times good average flow numbers make best average HP. ( average between 2500-7000)

Kurt
Yes because the port job is correctly done.. The velocity is there even if the head have larger runners.. simple like ABC
Old 01-02-2004, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by J-Rod
Here is a nice article on flow benches from Buddy Reher of Reher-Morrison.

http://www.rehermorrison.com/techTalk/16.htm
Interesting! thanx for sharing!
Old 01-03-2004, 11:35 AM
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Thanks for the article J-Rod.



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