Knife Edging and crank weight reduction
6600 rpm clutch dump of death Administrator
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,983
Likes: 13
From: Texas
I don't have AMS's number, but I suppose someone on this board may know them since they ran a car at the Thunder Shootout. My understanding is they are in Louisiana, Thunder Racing may be your best shot at getting in touch with them.
Hank The Crank can re-work (knife edge, nitride, remove stress risers, etc...) a stock crank for you. I'd look at AMS if I wanted to reduce the weight of the stock crank, which IMHO would not be a bad thing.
Sure, the stock crank isn't bad, but loosing weight out of the reciprocating mass is always a good thing.
Hank The Crank can re-work (knife edge, nitride, remove stress risers, etc...) a stock crank for you. I'd look at AMS if I wanted to reduce the weight of the stock crank, which IMHO would not be a bad thing.
Sure, the stock crank isn't bad, but loosing weight out of the reciprocating mass is always a good thing.
Launching!
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 250
Likes: 0
From: Oceanside CA
HTC LS1 cranks feature the following:
Ø E-4340 Forging
Ø Lightweight profiling
Ø Lightweight counterweights
Ø Knife-edging
Ø Fully detailed (no flash)
Ø Eight lightening holes
Ø Rifle-drilled
Ø Ion-Plasma Gas Nitriding
Ion Nitriding of the forging creates a material with the following benefits:
Ø 35% stronger than the source forging
Ø 32% greater resistance to wear
Ø Virtually distortion-free operation
Ø Higher resistance to bending (flex)
Ø Greater retention of finish grind dimensions (no growth in crankshaft journals)
I have started using these cranks exclusively in short/long blocks and crate engines we build. They simply do not have problems. If you still have the need to go further, they offer a billet model also. If I was going to go BIG on the boost/cylinder pressure, this is what I will use along with the Carillo A-beam rods. To my knowledge and experience, it doesn’t get any better. I just haven’t had a customer with the actual need and $$$ to use the latter configuration yet.
It will come…
Ø E-4340 Forging
Ø Lightweight profiling
Ø Lightweight counterweights
Ø Knife-edging
Ø Fully detailed (no flash)
Ø Eight lightening holes
Ø Rifle-drilled
Ø Ion-Plasma Gas Nitriding
Ion Nitriding of the forging creates a material with the following benefits:
Ø 35% stronger than the source forging
Ø 32% greater resistance to wear
Ø Virtually distortion-free operation
Ø Higher resistance to bending (flex)
Ø Greater retention of finish grind dimensions (no growth in crankshaft journals)
I have started using these cranks exclusively in short/long blocks and crate engines we build. They simply do not have problems. If you still have the need to go further, they offer a billet model also. If I was going to go BIG on the boost/cylinder pressure, this is what I will use along with the Carillo A-beam rods. To my knowledge and experience, it doesn’t get any better. I just haven’t had a customer with the actual need and $$$ to use the latter configuration yet.
It will come…
6600 rpm clutch dump of death Administrator
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,983
Likes: 13
From: Texas
I saw Scott's motor (the one in his sig) at the PRI show in HTC's booth. It is one trick piece. HTC is one of the uber crank companies. The reworked stock LS1 crank is beautiful. I alos look at one of their Winston Cup qualifier cranks which was literally a piece of art. I'd love to see what HTC could do on lightening up a crank....
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,060
Likes: 33
From: Canton, GA
If you are using a stock crank and aftermarket rods/pistons you will be adding weigh to the crank to get it balanced. I had to add $120 worth of mallory on mine.
So if you are removing weight from the stock crank, are you using some ultra-light rod/piston combo for balancing? That is, it seems counterproductive to the balancing process
So if you are removing weight from the stock crank, are you using some ultra-light rod/piston combo for balancing? That is, it seems counterproductive to the balancing process
6600 rpm clutch dump of death Administrator
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,983
Likes: 13
From: Texas
As weight move toward the center of the crank it becomes less a part of the balancing process. So, you scallop cut the counterweight. The thrown weight is out on the end (and often you do have to add some mallory metal). You also lighten the tail section of the crank. This drops the weight of the crank overall, but allows you to still balance the rotating assembly.
Here is a pic of an undercut crank, with a lightend tail.
Here is a pic of an undercut crank, with a lightend tail.
Last edited by J-Rod; Jan 8, 2004 at 10:44 AM.
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 250
Likes: 0
From: Oceanside CA
Originally Posted by Reckless
Scott,,,what is the cost of a stock crank reworked as mentioned above? I would imagine a forged crank would be much harder to lighten due to harder metal?
You can' actually re-work a stock crank entirely that way. For one, it's cast, so that eliminates most everything except the detailing. While you could mess around with the reshaping and weighting, it wouldn't be worth the cost and could weaken the casting.
As far as lightening the forging, no problem. That is exaclty on of the reasons to use it. They have the equipment to work with these compositions.
I should have pointed out those specs were strictly for his forgings and billets. The cost for one of the forged units, which HTC calls a "Premium E-4340" is $2,045. A billet unit is about $1k more.
I'll post the the cost to re-work a stock crank when I get back to the shop, can't pull it off the top of my head at the moment.
Launching!
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 250
Likes: 0
From: Oceanside CA
Originally Posted by KHShapiro
Scott post some prices for reworking Forged Aftermarket crank
Yeah, yeah, I'm hurrying.
Okay, this is what you would term a "retraction". My comments about the re-work of the stock crank were totally wrong. You can knife, harden, etc. that crank no problem.
I was talking to Scott Bechtloff (HTC-Hank's son) when I was driving back to the shop about the re-work cost on the stock crank, and he says "Well, for the knife-edging, lightening, blah, blah, blah"... Oops, sorry all.
Okay, with my head out of my, uh, other place, here are some costs
Re-work stock crank including:
Regrind
Magnuflux
Ion nitriding
Virbasonic stress-relieving
Detail
Polishing
Balancing
Main bearings
Cut keyway (never hurts)
= $700
Re-work stock rods including:
Resizing
Hone pin for press-fit
Polishing
Shot-peening
ARP bolts
Balancing
Rod bearings
=$250
Now, before you start thinking "But I can get a [fill-in-the-blank] 4340 crank from Global Trucking, Hair-Styling and Bitchin LS1 Parts for 2$ more than that", let me say this includes under-cutting the crank to get a 3.650 or 3.700 stroke to yield a 348/353 CI, respectively. The difference is a 3.650 can use re-worked stock rods, while the 3.700 requires use of aftermarket rods which are "typically" going to be $400+ and you still have to balance them and get bearings.
Sooooo, you can get a 348 for approximately $1,000, while a 353 is going to come in for at least $1,200.
Sorry for the long-winded reply. I'm off to do a dyno-tune on a Camaro, so I wanted to get as many possible questions answered now. I'll check back on the forum in a while.
Thanks for the questions all.
6600 rpm clutch dump of death Administrator
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,983
Likes: 13
From: Texas
I talked with them about this @ PRI. I may have talked with Scott, I'm not sure. I don't have his business card with me. He was a young kid with blond hair. Really nice though.
He did give me your business card Scott. I liked the valve covers you had on the display engine. I talked with them about doing their treatment and doing an offset grind to 1.888 (acura) and getting some used Carillios from one of the shops that sells used NASCAR stuff like JR's.
But, with the cost of some of the Eagles about to hit the market it makes it a pretty moot point. But in a stock class that would be the hot ticket for sure.
He did give me your business card Scott. I liked the valve covers you had on the display engine. I talked with them about doing their treatment and doing an offset grind to 1.888 (acura) and getting some used Carillios from one of the shops that sells used NASCAR stuff like JR's.
But, with the cost of some of the Eagles about to hit the market it makes it a pretty moot point. But in a stock class that would be the hot ticket for sure.
Lightening of stock cranks hello everybody,this is my first post but i've been an avid reader for some time. anyway i was just looking for a place to lighten a stock crank by increasing the size of the holes in the rod journals and by other means as long as it's reasonbly affordable and doesn't compromise strength.i don't need a tough 4340 crank as i would like to take a stock displacement complimented with a light steel rod and piston combo and rev the **** out of it.if anyone knows of a machine shop that is capable and experienced please let me know. my search with google turned up empty except AMS as was mentioned earlier. THANX!!
