Chapter 1/ LS1Tech Project/ Supercharged Formula
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Re: Chapter 1/ LS1Tech Project/ Supercharged Formula I definitely appreciate all of the comments regarding running a forged crank. I think the stock crank is good for 700rwhp but I will spend some time looking into options. Problem is that a forged crank with 3.622 stroke might be considered a custom order, and from Scat that can be hella pricey.
I will order a bunch of stuff today and then post all of the part numbers.
As an aside, my motor will be very similar to Harlan's except that I will have a smidge more compression, and I have 2.02/1.57's and he has 2.02/1.60's. I will also have a supercharger cam grind. My cam should have nice top end at the expense (just a little) of the mid-range.
I plan to have 5000 to 7000 be the operating range of this motor.
ChrisB, I am very much wanting to run a impedance converter for the planned 83lb injectors. Harlan's MAF setup is pricey but I am waiting to see if Greg B. can come up with better pricing, when I priced Harl's MAF setup with the converter harness? it was like $900. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="gr_sad.gif" />
And Chris, I plan to run an air/water setup like Chris S. aka Inurdrmz. He is going to build it for the car. My problem with air/air is that at BEST it will bring temps down to ambient. Sounds to me like most air/air guys never even see ambient at the track, they are like 20F over that. My interest in air/water is that it might allow me to make big power on 110 unleaded so I can stay closed loop. I do not like the idea of messing with draining the 'cooler between runs but I'll try to make a custom drain and I'm not sure if the ice will completely melt on one pass.
I will order a bunch of stuff today and then post all of the part numbers.
As an aside, my motor will be very similar to Harlan's except that I will have a smidge more compression, and I have 2.02/1.57's and he has 2.02/1.60's. I will also have a supercharger cam grind. My cam should have nice top end at the expense (just a little) of the mid-range.
I plan to have 5000 to 7000 be the operating range of this motor.
ChrisB, I am very much wanting to run a impedance converter for the planned 83lb injectors. Harlan's MAF setup is pricey but I am waiting to see if Greg B. can come up with better pricing, when I priced Harl's MAF setup with the converter harness? it was like $900. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="gr_sad.gif" />
And Chris, I plan to run an air/water setup like Chris S. aka Inurdrmz. He is going to build it for the car. My problem with air/air is that at BEST it will bring temps down to ambient. Sounds to me like most air/air guys never even see ambient at the track, they are like 20F over that. My interest in air/water is that it might allow me to make big power on 110 unleaded so I can stay closed loop. I do not like the idea of messing with draining the 'cooler between runs but I'll try to make a custom drain and I'm not sure if the ice will completely melt on one pass.
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Re: Chapter 1/ LS1Tech Project/ Supercharged Formula You could keep stock bore and use a 4 inch stroke crank for 383 with the shortest rod, thickest piston combo you can get away with.
Are you planning on custom reverse dome pistons to help with quench?
Sounds like a neat project, hope the heads stay on <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
Be sure to run a cog setup or you will experience hell tuning it. (If there is belt slippage)
Cheers,
Chris
ps- My preference would be a large front mount air to air intercooler with a spal fan attached to the back used only up to the 330 foot mark. (intercooling on the line <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
Are you planning on custom reverse dome pistons to help with quench?
Sounds like a neat project, hope the heads stay on <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
Be sure to run a cog setup or you will experience hell tuning it. (If there is belt slippage)
Cheers,
Chris
ps- My preference would be a large front mount air to air intercooler with a spal fan attached to the back used only up to the 330 foot mark. (intercooling on the line <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
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Re: Chapter 1/ LS1Tech Project/ Supercharged Formula Why not push the stroke a little bit. 3.75" or so. That would give you a 360 and a forged crank. You should still have plenty of room for at least 6" rods and some decent piston thickness.
Go reverse dome. And if you are having Diamond do it, have them coat the tops.
Also, GET A COG!!!!! Dont **** around with anything less. Its bad enough you went with a combo basically already done (althought I do like it). Just keep saying to yourself that the heads WONT lift if the tune is right and its detonation free.
I see you talking about money too. Seems to me this is the WRONG project to be worried about cash. Get the converter, get the cal'd 3.5" MAF and set it up like Harlans. He's right were you want to be...700rwhp.
Ryan
Go reverse dome. And if you are having Diamond do it, have them coat the tops.
Also, GET A COG!!!!! Dont **** around with anything less. Its bad enough you went with a combo basically already done (althought I do like it). Just keep saying to yourself that the heads WONT lift if the tune is right and its detonation free.
I see you talking about money too. Seems to me this is the WRONG project to be worried about cash. Get the converter, get the cal'd 3.5" MAF and set it up like Harlans. He's right were you want to be...700rwhp.
Ryan
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Re: Chapter 1/ LS1Tech Project/ Supercharged Formula Well this is chapter 1 of potentially 10 or more chapters on the build up so I will not address the MAF at this time. I will say that Speed Inc. made 700rwhp with a stock MAF so I plan to attempt a tune with the stock MAF but I'll at the very least report bad news if it maxes out too early.
Back on point, which is the longblock.
My concern is not at all with the stroke. 3.622 is plenty stroke for a motor like this. The difference between that and say the stroke you mentioned Chris is not worth it to me. I'm not worried about low end torque when I think I'll see at least 5000 stall off the line.
I'm patterning the build on a NMRA Renegade Mustang. Those guys run 4.030 x 3.000 motors and run low to flat 9's at 150mph. A few comments on that class... Those guys are cube limited and have limitations on the cam specs too. The record for that class is like a 8.95@154mph (something like that) and that's at 3300 raceweight. With an 8 rib belt, not cogs. I don't think they can run transbrakes either. I'm planning to run a similar fuel system to what they run, similar gearing, and a similar torque converter. I will have a Renegade involved in the tuning as well since I think I can learn from him regarding how the car will hit, how the AF will react down the track, etc. Did I also mention that this class does not allow intercoolers? I do not want to run 116 leaded gas so that will be at least an initial departure from their tried and true combinations. I also have a buddy who has a 96Z that ran a 9.49 shakedown pass off the footbrake and his car is also a major reference point for the build.
Back on point, which is the longblock.
My concern is not at all with the stroke. 3.622 is plenty stroke for a motor like this. The difference between that and say the stroke you mentioned Chris is not worth it to me. I'm not worried about low end torque when I think I'll see at least 5000 stall off the line.
I'm patterning the build on a NMRA Renegade Mustang. Those guys run 4.030 x 3.000 motors and run low to flat 9's at 150mph. A few comments on that class... Those guys are cube limited and have limitations on the cam specs too. The record for that class is like a 8.95@154mph (something like that) and that's at 3300 raceweight. With an 8 rib belt, not cogs. I don't think they can run transbrakes either. I'm planning to run a similar fuel system to what they run, similar gearing, and a similar torque converter. I will have a Renegade involved in the tuning as well since I think I can learn from him regarding how the car will hit, how the AF will react down the track, etc. Did I also mention that this class does not allow intercoolers? I do not want to run 116 leaded gas so that will be at least an initial departure from their tried and true combinations. I also have a buddy who has a 96Z that ran a 9.49 shakedown pass off the footbrake and his car is also a major reference point for the build.
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Re: Chapter 1/ LS1Tech Project/ Supercharged Formula I was referring to the 4 inch stroke only in terms of ease of availability and strength. If you can get a forged stock stroke crank in a short amount of time then that is perfect as well. If you can't get one in a reasonable time then I would go with the 4 inch stroke.
Cheers,
Chris
Cheers,
Chris
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Re: Chapter 1/ LS1Tech Project/ Supercharged Formula </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Pro Stock John:
<strong> I also have a buddy who has a 96Z that ran a 9.49 shakedown pass off the footbrake and his car is also a major reference point for the build. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sikora? Doesnt he run FAST? With 383cid? 7500+ rpm? Major suspension mods? And I read he did that 9.4 and couldnt go faster due to a SLIPPING belt. I bet the Ren. crowd runs ribs because of a class restriction or they run larger pulleys. I could see a 8 or 12-rib for your set up with a big (8+") crank pulley.
But back to the long block. besides the heads (??) everything has been done. you should be fine.
<strong> I also have a buddy who has a 96Z that ran a 9.49 shakedown pass off the footbrake and his car is also a major reference point for the build. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sikora? Doesnt he run FAST? With 383cid? 7500+ rpm? Major suspension mods? And I read he did that 9.4 and couldnt go faster due to a SLIPPING belt. I bet the Ren. crowd runs ribs because of a class restriction or they run larger pulleys. I could see a 8 or 12-rib for your set up with a big (8+") crank pulley.
But back to the long block. besides the heads (??) everything has been done. you should be fine.
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Re: Chapter 1/ LS1Tech Project/ Supercharged Formula Chris did have belt slippage issues the 1/8th mph (118mph) is more indicative of a 9.1 pass. But I would initially run a different diameter crank pulley based on his suggestions. I think they shifted the car at 7000, and yes he has FAST. I'll do FAST too if the mods necessary to stay stock computer become too expensive. But I will find the maximum power level with stock computer and unleaded gas, and run the car like that (weather permitting). And he does have a built hydraulic cam'd 383ci LT1. I figure my headflow will counter his cubes and bore size.
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Re: Chapter 1/ LS1Tech Project/ Supercharged Formula You can make it work with a stock MAF if you have enough injector - it's mainly a part throttle issue - if you start maxing the MAF out but aren't at full boost then you will be putting in fuel and timing @ that point commensurate with whatever the max cfm/boost is at that rpm point. So if the MAF maxes out at 8 lbs at 4500 rpm, and you can do 15, your fueling and timing will be setup for 15 - if you are now part throttle at 4500 and only doing 10lbs you are going to be low on timing and pig rich.
How much of an issue it becomes depends on how early you max the setup out at. But you can easily drive around it also - just figure out where you MAF out the maf, and at the point drive the car like it is on/off (or just accept the reduced part throttle performance).
Tuning at WOT can still be done - it will be a little more difficult, but we are just talking maybe a few more hours on the dyno, not anything groud-breaking.
I had no idea harlan's setup was that expensive! I am working on my own, but probably won't be done for 2 months or so as I am fixing to take off. When I get it done I will send you an email.
Chris
How much of an issue it becomes depends on how early you max the setup out at. But you can easily drive around it also - just figure out where you MAF out the maf, and at the point drive the car like it is on/off (or just accept the reduced part throttle performance).
Tuning at WOT can still be done - it will be a little more difficult, but we are just talking maybe a few more hours on the dyno, not anything groud-breaking.
I had no idea harlan's setup was that expensive! I am working on my own, but probably won't be done for 2 months or so as I am fixing to take off. When I get it done I will send you an email.
Chris
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Re: Chapter 1/ LS1Tech Project/ Supercharged Formula As far as the pcm goes, here is how I look at it.
A FAST setup will run me $2000.
So if patchwork solutions get over $1200 I am not doing it. That $2000 includes a wideband.
Harl's MAF + the MAF harness was pricey, I am willing to spend some hundos on a MAF but not $900. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="gr_eek2.gif" />
A FAST setup will run me $2000.
So if patchwork solutions get over $1200 I am not doing it. That $2000 includes a wideband.
Harl's MAF + the MAF harness was pricey, I am willing to spend some hundos on a MAF but not $900. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="gr_eek2.gif" />
Re: Chapter 1/ LS1Tech Project/ Supercharged Formula I'd LOVE to see this done with a stock crank. This is a selfish engineering request and not advice. IMHO the stock crank with rolled fillets is stronger than has been proven....any failures? <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />
<small>[ February 25, 2003, 09:37 PM: Message edited by: onfire ]</small>
<small>[ February 25, 2003, 09:37 PM: Message edited by: onfire ]</small>
Re: Chapter 1/ LS1Tech Project/ Supercharged Formula I wouldn't waste my time or $$ with a FI project without a FAST system.The 3 BAR MAP and wideband make it a breeze to tune, and you can ditch the MAF. It will pay for itself with time the in car wideband will save you.
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From: Chicago, IL
Re: Chapter 1/ LS1Tech Project/ Supercharged Formula I think my last post was worded funny, but what I meant to say was that I will do FAST or something like it if patchwork solutions start to add up in a way that doesn't make sense.
I picked up my block last nite, it's a new 2002 LS6 bare crate block and I got it for $550 from a guy about 150 miles from here.
I picked up my block last nite, it's a new 2002 LS6 bare crate block and I got it for $550 from a guy about 150 miles from here.
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Re: Chapter 1/ LS1Tech Project/ Supercharged Formula There's no reason you shouldn't do as well or better than the renegade guys. You are right, model after them.
Alot of them use ported TFS TW heads that do right at 300CFM@.500" and max at 320CFM. This is similar to the ported LS6 heads.
Alot of them use ported TFS TW heads that do right at 300CFM@.500" and max at 320CFM. This is similar to the ported LS6 heads.
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Re: Chapter 1/ LS1Tech Project/ Supercharged Formula I use one friend's Renegade Mustang as a reference point. Now his raceweight is 3300, I think mine might be 3400 or more. I'll run the same tires, same fuel system, and an engine that has less bore but more stroke. I know they run 5000-5500 converters so I will shoot for a 5000 stall. I need excellent shift extension and I won't be running a transbrake so I want the flare of a big converter when I stab it off the line. The Renegade guys run 9.1's to be competitive so if I can find a 9.4 out of the car by year end I will be happy. My Renegade friend will be participating in my dynoing of the car as well. I want to get his thoughts as I want to tune it safely but get great power as mentioned from 5000 to 7000 rpms.
Re: Chapter 1/ LS1Tech Project/ Supercharged Formula PSJ, I believe that Rob Raymer is also running a stock crank in his ARE 375 iron block. He's putting 700+ to the wheels and running 9s.
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Re: Chapter 1/ LS1Tech Project/ Supercharged Formula PSJ:
Sounds like its going to be one bad *** wild set up man. As your going to making huge power and running huge boost, i'm surprised you didn't go with the addeded strength and durability of a 6 liter ironblock. Certainly the weight penalty will be canceled out by the MEGA POWER your engine will make.
Good luck and i look foward to seeing the beast this season over at Speed, Inc.
MTI 427 C5 Roadster
Sounds like its going to be one bad *** wild set up man. As your going to making huge power and running huge boost, i'm surprised you didn't go with the addeded strength and durability of a 6 liter ironblock. Certainly the weight penalty will be canceled out by the MEGA POWER your engine will make.
Good luck and i look foward to seeing the beast this season over at Speed, Inc.
MTI 427 C5 Roadster
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Re: Chapter 1/ LS1Tech Project/ Supercharged Formula I easily could have done an iron block Jim.
I am chosing not to, to see what happens if we properly fuel the motor and start out with a conservative tune.
I'll try to have part numbers for everything but the vendors are kind of busy.
Yeah I think that Raymer's 9.9 pass was with a stock crank but I am not sure. I think a person could go 8's with a stock crank.
To debate the big motor issue.
Only way I would have done a 4__ci motor was if I had planned to run 8:1 compression so I could try to make 700rwhp on pump gas.
I'll be down 50 or more cubes from some of the big cube guys but I will also have a motor that is not 75lbs heavier.
I'd like to see someone run a 4.030 bore iron block with a 3.27 Sierra crank. I would have done it (I have the crank) but I want to max out the aluminum block.
I am chosing not to, to see what happens if we properly fuel the motor and start out with a conservative tune.
I'll try to have part numbers for everything but the vendors are kind of busy.
Yeah I think that Raymer's 9.9 pass was with a stock crank but I am not sure. I think a person could go 8's with a stock crank.
To debate the big motor issue.
Only way I would have done a 4__ci motor was if I had planned to run 8:1 compression so I could try to make 700rwhp on pump gas.
I'll be down 50 or more cubes from some of the big cube guys but I will also have a motor that is not 75lbs heavier.
I'd like to see someone run a 4.030 bore iron block with a 3.27 Sierra crank. I would have done it (I have the crank) but I want to max out the aluminum block.
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Re: Chapter 1/ LS1Tech Project/ Supercharged Formula Just so you know.....in renegade they do use 8 rib belts but they do use a belt softener on the belts to get them to stick to the pullies which puts the life of the belt to about a handful of passes at best
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Re: Chapter 1/ LS1Tech Project/ Supercharged Formula Bob said the softeners are allowed but really don't help.
Chapter 2 will be about the supercharger and the intercooler.
Chapter 2 will be about the supercharger and the intercooler.