TXZ28LS1

iTrader: (5)

****, my bad..good catch..

In that case, i would definitely throw a good mid 230 cam. You can still make them drive very easily no problems.

TwitchZ28

iTrader: (3)

Haha good job spotting that Hazmatt. Yeah I have a lvl 5 in there with the stall for the exact reason you guys are talking about. I was planning for the future and got a killer deal from a buddy.

So basically the fight I am having about this now is that if I get something tailored to me now...it wont be as good later when I do heads and spin the car a little higher(which I wasnt going to do but since I learned I can spin it higher being a 2002 and not have to worry too much)

Another thing. Everyone keeps talking about low end torque and usable power...but thats just it. People arent understanding! I cannot use power down low. Since I have a 4k stall, even if I had tons or torque down at 2500 rpm it would be worthless because if If cruising at that speed the stall is letting it slip, and if I mash it I am instantly almost at 4 grand. So I need power between like 3500 rpm and 6500 rpm. I dont care at all about any power anywhere else in the rev range.

So can I just move the rev limiter with a tune? cause id still like to have it around but just bump it to like 6600 or so.

Also If I decide to spin to 6500 or 6600, is the V3 a good choice or not not?
Also what dictates if a cam make good power through its curve or just good peak power? I don't want all the power to be at 6400 rpm. I would like it to be nice even power all the way from 3600 to 6600

also. car will have long tubes and true duals before cam goes in, UD pulleys just before or just after, and then after the cam goes in modding is gonna slow for a bit but heads and a fast intake will come eventually

TXZ28LS1

iTrader: (5)

if your car is a dedicated drag car, then i would opt for a custom cam. but if you will be daily driving your car, something fun on the street any cam will be fine. You are running a big stall to help compliment the cam. The TV3 is a good cam. 231/234. I would look into the TSP 233/239 or VRX5 236/238.

PREDATOR-Z

228/232 111+3 LSA, 8* overlap

01ssreda4

iTrader: (96)

C33-790 LS Hydraulic Roller Camshaft; 228'/232', .612"/.612", 113'+4'; 2,200 to 6,200 RPM

HAZ-Matt

iTrader: (8)

I suppose it depends on your perspective of what is low end... I suppose to be precise we should just talk about mid-high range. Like I said, you should think about optimizing the torque so that it peaks around 4800RPM which is a little above your stall speed and where it wants to fall based on most plastic intakes for these motors. As far as the rev limit, you need to think about how high you are willing to go... you do not want power peak right at the shift, it should be several hundred RPM below the shift to maximize average power as you go through the gears.

In addition, if your car sees much time on the street then you will be glad that you spec'd a cam that has decent dynamic compression and good mid range torque because it will be much more pleasant to drive around town. Better throttle response, etc.

I personally don't think so since the peak is around 6400RPM with the TV3. It wouldn't be a bad choice, but I don't think it is optimal for the parameters you are giving. The MS4 referenced earlier would be less of a fit for your rev range.

If it were me I wouldn't go much higher than low-mid 220's intake duration for the power band you are describing. A lot depends on the lobe choice and lift though. I'm not sure if anyone even talked about how aggressive you want to go with lift / lobe / ramp rates and possible more maintenance intensive valvetrain from a spring life standpoint. But since you were considering TV3 and MS4 then I suppose nearly any lift is fair game

There are several decent suggestions in this thread. I still think you might want to consider having someone spec the cam for you though.

TwitchZ28

iTrader: (3)

thanks a lot for the advice guys. so if I buy a cam that says it peaks at 4800 then wont everything after that be garbage? I really dont know that much about cams, I am still learning. I wanna go pretty wild with this as it is not going to be a daily driver, but will see a lot more street time than track time. But I dont want to go super wild, or wild enough to be more maintenance intensive on the valvetrain. I am going to do just about the minimum as far as internals when I do the swap. pretty much just springs.

so what dictates whether a cam has a really strong pull through its tq band or is a little weaker through the band but makes crazy peak power?

01ssreda4

iTrader: (96)

Torque peak and hp peak are 2 completely different things.

01ssreda4

iTrader: (96)

You have a really poor understanding IMO of what it takes to mod a car or put together a good combo. I can tell all of this by this one post. We want to help you, so help us help you. Learn all you can, it will save you a lot of heartbreak and money. Wanting to put your car to Weekend Warrior status but wanting to do minimal upgrades is just plain stupid. They are opposites and they don't go together. It's like saying I love squishy fat ***** but I have to have a supermodel girlfriend. Ain't gonna happen. Read, learn, understand. We will help you achieve your goals but you must be willing to sacrifice something. Maintenance intervals will be one of those, as well as buying supporting mods that don't actually make power

HAZ-Matt

iTrader: (8)

I'm talking about torque peak at 4800RPM, so if what I posted was confusing then I apologize. As long as something screwy isn't going on, the torque will just be falling gently after that point and the horsepower curve will continue to climb up to the low 6000's (I am speaking more hypothetically than in absolutes because the actual curve will depend on how you spec the cam). Peak power, on the other hand, at 4800RPM would make the car more like a an old pickup truck than a modern performance car and might not be fun, but then again you could get that trailer hitch you always wanted

The goal should be to maximize average power through whatever rev range you decide. I was suggesting that you think about torque peak around 4800RPM and power peak near 6200RPM because that is where they want to fall with stock style intake manifolds / intake length and because I think that also fits with your 4k stall and reving to 64-6500RPM.

As for the second question, that is somewhat complicated... I am not a cam designer so this is sort of a disclaimer (that is why there is a caduceus as my avatar and not a cam ). A short and perhaps unsatisfying answer might be that a cam that optimizes cylinder filling and exhaust evacuation in a narrower rev range gives you more peak but a less broad power band than one that tries to compromise on absolute performance in order to work over a broader rev range. Some might want to give you the curt answer that lower LSA gives higher peak but less wide a band while higher LSA gives you a lower peak but broader band, but I think that overemphasizes the importance of that number while trivializing the actual valve events, and can be misleading since LSA is quite relative if you start comparing cams with different durations. If you go to a more concrete spec and look at the overlap, then in general terms if the rest of the setup works well, then you can use the overlap to increase cylinder filling at higher rpm at the expense of idle quality / low RPM where there is a tendency for part of the intake charge to go out the exhaust or for exhaust to hang out or even go into the intake manifold depending partly on where the overlap is centered in the cycle. Or consider increased intake duration which helps fill the cylinder at higher RPM, but can delay intake closing which decreases dynamic compression. Or increased exhaust duration, which helps expel the exhaust at high RPM but could potentially cause the exhaust valve opening to be too early in the power stroke which will bleed of cylinder pressure that would otherwise be used to push the piston down and will reduce engine torque... Valve events that give you power in one range of the tach often are not ideal for the other end, which is why VTEC, VVT, VANOS, Variocam, cam phasing, or whatever you want to call it are nice since you can manipulate valve events based on RPM so you are not making as many compromises.

As for the post above, it is good advice. There is no need to jump right in. Read up in this section or talk to someone that has a good handle with all of these things. And sitting down and thinking of a solid list of priorities will be important. It's cliche but you can't have your cake and eat it too. Most cams will require a bit more maintenance in terms of valve replacement... exceptions might be LS6 cam or Hotcam, but I am not sure that either of those is exactly what you would want. I know that most everyone wants to get some sort of hero cam so that they can get huge numbers, but as above there is no free lunch. As far as livability is concerned, "undercamming" is preferable to "overcamming". And also consider that the original guys running 11s in these cars were doing so with cams that are considered "very small" by the average board member today. Yes tuning is better and that helps tame big cams a bit, but I think there has certainly been a little one-upsmanship regarding specs that has led to the creep up in cam sizes.

edit: something I almost left out. The cam is the centerpiece of the motor and really for the best results you would know what combustion chambers, what valves, what headers, what intake setup you will have as well as desired rev range... Obviously if you have a roadmap for your mods then perhaps you can get a cam that will work with both the stock intake / heads or whatever aftermarket pieces, or tailor one more towards the aftermarket pieces and just run it with the stock stuff for the time being. I dunno, it is your decision. Obviously nobody wants to buy parts twice, but a cam optimized for one set of components won't quite be right compared to the other components. Depending on the actual part the difference can be minimized I suppose. Just one more thing to think about.

z99ls1

iTrader: (12)

True story. Trust this, it reminds me when I put my cam in my lt1 and I put a little 2400 stall in and left my stock manifolds on. Not a good idea.... Do alot alot alot of searching and reading and pick a something that has been used and you have seen that has workin in my opinion.

TwitchZ28

iTrader: (3)

thanks again for the further advice hazmatt.
as for the other comment. I am not quite as un-educated about all of these things as my quick post may have made me seem. I am by no means an expert, but I am not a complete moron either. It is the details I am working on learning. I am simply new to matching cams with stall. I have so far chosen every mod I have to be tailored to my final goal which has been laid out...except for maybe a few details that are not quite set in stone yet. as for the cam, I will not be purchasing one for quite some time(several months) for a couple of reasons. 1st because I need suspension before I go sticking any sort of power to the ground(gotta love unibodies) 2nd because I need exhaust way before the cam, and 3rd because I do not have the money for all the supporting mods for a cam yet. Im working on it. I am not going to be the idiot that just throws a cam is a stock motor and starts racing it. I understand that there are many internals that should be changed. what I meant by saying that all i NEEDED was to change the springs was that that is all that the cam maker requires for the v3, and would no doubt apply to other cams in its range. why I said that all I was going to do was change the springs is beyond me.
here is the situation with the weekend warrior thing. As of late I have been trying more and more to take the camaro away from being my daily driver, but I cant seem to hold any luck with the cars I am using to drive every day. for example, I just bought a blazer which ran really well, untill it blew the front pump gasket in the tranny and started leaking fluid from the bell housing cover, then discovered the clutch packs were shot. So now that i have had the tranny rebuilt in it. I am daily driving it again. However I am starting to get the feeling that the 130,000 miles it has done have been pretty rough. It just doesnt feel that solid and I am not planning on sinking any more money into it than I have to. So if I can get it sold and buy a reliable car I can park the camaro and start building,

also when I say I want to go wild but not too wild I mean exactly this. When I finish doing performance mods I am going to be running mid to high 11s, but thats not the point. I will have it set up so that down the road in a few years if i want to start modding further I will be able to add to my current set up without changing anything that I have already bought. For example. I bought a lvl 5 built tranny(built to RPM Transmissions standards with their parts, but built by a local builder) for two reasons. 1 because I got a good deal, and two because it is built to handle upwards of 700rwhp. so even though I know I am not going to come anywhere near that with this build...I know I can in a couple years and not have to worry about the tranny.

now. as for cam choice. I will admit that I did not know the fallout points for the hp and tq on the stock motor, but I was just asking if you could tell where the peak torque would be without asking the cam maker. I know texas speed tells the power peak, but not the tq. also hazmatt I agree that a tq peak around 4800 and power peak at 6200 or 6300 would be perfect.

overall thanks for the advice everyone and this is the reason I am making this thread and having these conversations so far in advance of buying my cam. I am not one for rushing...theres no point now anyways since the camaro is parked for the winter. No mods going on till spring so no reason to rush anything.

and maintenance is not an issue

HAZ-Matt

iTrader: (8)

Way back in the day before decent tuning guys were getting into 11's with low 220 intake duration on older style lobes. There is a thread started in 2007 called "Do any shops market small cams anymore? why NOT" It is sort of funny to look at now since cams have creeped higher since then...

215-224 intake duration on something like LSL, LSK or EPS lobes (or whatever comparable lobes from other manufacturers) IMO is where you would want to be... with the right parts around it and if you spec the events correctly you shouldn't have difficulty getting into the 11s. All the other stuff is important, as you know.

There are actually a fair amount of shelf grinds that have already been mentioned in this thread that would be decent choices as far as your parameters, some might be a little better than others. But I think if you are going to swap it might as well go custom so that it is tailored exactly to your parameters and mods.

TwitchZ28

iTrader: (3)

well the only thing that turns me off of a custom grind is that if you put it in and change your mind you cannot swap it back out. like texas-speed for example even says in their add any custom grind cam transaction is final and no refunds etc. I am sure I would be ok with my custom grind but what if for some reason im not...then im out the money. where as shelf grind even if I cant get my money back, they are still way easier to sell than custom.

also wouldnt getting a larger cam be better for setting myself up for later mods? Im trying to think how my buddies build turned out I think he went with a cam around 220 intake. I agree that the smaller cam will make plenty of power now but do u think it would leave something to be desired down the road?...then again if I ever went forced induction a smaller grind would be better...hmm. ive got a lot of thinking to do

01ssreda4

iTrader: (96)

A custom grind is nice and all but in all honesty there is a shelf cam out there for just about every combination. I don't see the hang up over the custom specs. Some or most of these shelf cams were done by the same LS guys still spec'ing cams now-a-days. They are good grinds that have stuck around for a reason. No reason to treat them as second rate.

TwitchZ28

iTrader: (3)

I agree. Why not buy something that has been proven and that there are dyno number up here on the forum with that exact grind?

01ssreda4

iTrader: (96)

That actually sounds like you are describing a shelf cam. Tons of info about shelf cams out there with just about every engine combo imaginable. Funny that EPS is the flavor of the week around here. Well to my understanding Geoff at EPS used to be a major player at Thunder Racing in Baton Rouge. So what if he say developed a cam or cams for Thunder and they turned into Thunder marketed cams like Trex or RapTR, and you are debating between one of those and an EPS custom grind. See what i mean, not much difference. Is it that much difference to call a sponsor, tell them your combo, and say "Whats THE best shelf cam you have that will fit my needs?" I bet you will get something pretty damn good

TwitchZ28

iTrader: (3)

I was agreeing with u on shelf cam haha

So wat are a few of the most favored cam brands on here? Everyone I know runs comp

01ssreda4

iTrader: (96)

Well comp cuts almost everyone's cams bc they are a manufacturer. They cut TSP, Thunder, Pat G and just about everyone else on here. The only other place that makes cams I know of is Cam Motion which is almost local to me (about 3 hours away). They cut Futral's stuff for him as he is a few miles from their place (Both in/around Baton Rouge). They are a mom and pop operation compared to Comp.

HAZ-Matt

iTrader: (8)

If that is important then I suppose get a off the shelf cam then

Small versus big is not the right way to look at it... rev range and displacement would be pertinent. But without knowing what you are doing in the future then any choice is not guaranteed to be optimal. Throwing FI into the mix is another complication all-together.

At any rate as far as stuff off the shelf (for NA in your rev range), by all means not comprehensive:
EPS 218/226 .595/.598 113
EPS 222/226 .597/.598 113
TR 224/224 .563/.563 112
TSP 224/224 .581/.581 112
CM 224/228 .595/.595 112+4
FMS 224/224 .588/.588 112
FMS 224/228 .588/.576 112