vengance vs mamo fast intake
03-21-2011, 10:04 PM
#42
If someone had a stock intake and was going to get it ported I could see someone going with Tony. But if it's already ported by Vengeance, IMO there is no way it would be worth the money to have it ported again.
Save that money for a rear end!
Save that money for a rear end!
03-22-2011, 01:31 PM
#43
Seriously? Formato is a tuner. Maybe he could paint the car also while he has it. LOL
Anyway, one of these threads turns up every couple of months. You get what you pay for. these things aren't done by a CNC machine. There are several factors involved.
First, porting is an art. Getting consistency from runner to runner is difficult and that's why a set of PROPERLY ported heads used to cost so much money (before CNC's). So who ports the Vengeance intakes? Does Ron do them or some guy that he has working there? We know who ports Tony's.
$/hr. How many hours are you going to get spent on your intake if you are paying $250 vs $500. I'll tell you, about half. Vengeance sells a "clean-up" done with a sandroll and some port matching.
The last thing that you have to look at is how much are the gain differences worth to you between the 2. Then you can make a decision.
Anyway, one of these threads turns up every couple of months. You get what you pay for. these things aren't done by a CNC machine. There are several factors involved.
First, porting is an art. Getting consistency from runner to runner is difficult and that's why a set of PROPERLY ported heads used to cost so much money (before CNC's). So who ports the Vengeance intakes? Does Ron do them or some guy that he has working there? We know who ports Tony's.
$/hr. How many hours are you going to get spent on your intake if you are paying $250 vs $500. I'll tell you, about half. Vengeance sells a "clean-up" done with a sandroll and some port matching.
The last thing that you have to look at is how much are the gain differences worth to you between the 2. Then you can make a decision.
Do a search about 3 or 4 years back with my screen name and vengence port job. As stated above, I got a clean up job on my manifold. I was expecting a port job. There's a thread on here with with pictures that show what a clean up is and a porting between these two sponsors.
Ron admitted I fell through their quality control cracks because the installation screws where thrown in the box and the porting was less than expected and offered me $100 gift certificate to their shop. I declined.
Ron admitted I fell through their quality control cracks because the installation screws where thrown in the box and the porting was less than expected and offered me $100 gift certificate to their shop. I declined.
Comparing my vengence ported intake vs my dads Jeremy Formato intake...I was pretty pissed I didn't go with formato...it looked like someone just ran a sand roll around for an hr or so...
But maybe since then they have changed how they port intakes...
either way I see both have there place...but I would bet Tony gains more than 2 hp going off the intake I recieved 2 years go...
true way to test would be getting one intake from each porter that is in circulation so no ringers are sent out...would definitely be interesting...
03-22-2011, 05:14 PM
#44
I doubt Mamo would even touch an intake another person has already "ported". I know I wouldn't, too much second hand liability.
I bought a "ported" intake from a sponsor (one of those big three letter outfits with all the nutswingers) and it looked like it was "ported" by a blind monkey with a chainsaw. What a nightmare getting it sorted out too. I also find it a bit funny that some shops tout the gains from their porting but it has yet to be substantiated by an A to B test format. The bottom line is, with Tony Mamo, you get what you pay for....
Actually I guess the real bottom line is, if you already have a ported intake and it looks decent just throw it on and enjoy.
I bought a "ported" intake from a sponsor (one of those big three letter outfits with all the nutswingers) and it looked like it was "ported" by a blind monkey with a chainsaw. What a nightmare getting it sorted out too. I also find it a bit funny that some shops tout the gains from their porting but it has yet to be substantiated by an A to B test format. The bottom line is, with Tony Mamo, you get what you pay for....
Actually I guess the real bottom line is, if you already have a ported intake and it looks decent just throw it on and enjoy.
Last edited by VIPRETR2; 03-22-2011 at 05:32 PM.
03-22-2011, 07:30 PM
#45
Guys,
Ive been trying to avoid this thread because in some respects it creates unnecessary tension and truthfully its been hashed over and over in other threads....but none as direct as this one.
However, its getting to the point I feel not responding would be doing myself an injustice so that said I think I'm going to just say whats on my mind and be done with it.
Life hasn't changed today, or yesterday, or tomorrow....and what I mean by that is you GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. Occasionally you find a deal or unique situation here and there, but more times than not that old adage is usually true. Some purchases may just take longer to realize that....
The million dollar question is what are you getting here for the additional money??
Lets look at that.....first off your getting an intake ported by the guy that started the entire FAST porting business....this is a fact. I pioneered that situation back in 2004 after I took one look at the original FAST 78 and FAST 90 and said to myself these intakes are far from optimal in an out of the box configuration. I then proceeded to spend a bunch of time on the flowbench experimenting and optimizing those particular intakes. Back then everyone questioned why would you port the FAST intake.....now if your looking to make big power and you dont have a ported FAST everyone questions that....pretty ironic in fact.
Lets also state the obvious that often gets overlooked....I have more experience than most when dealing with anything airflow related and have logged more hours in front of a flowbench than I can count (literally thousands). My "day job" is the R&D and Product Development Mgr at a highly respected company that specializes in airflow and how to properly manage it. My home life has me doing much of the same including building some very detailed highly optimized complete engines....My life is AIRFLOW guys as it relates directly to engines and power production....who do you want to trust porting your $800 over priced piece of plastic?
IMO there is no comparison of the intakes in question and this thread should have more data and input from people that have seen and experienced both or how can an opinion even be offered. BUT why should they compare when the price of what we are discussing is so different. Is it fair to compare a $1600 budget head to a $2500 aftermarket casting??
The overall level of execution, "neatness" and attention to detail, the consistency from port to port you measure with a dial indicator (not a ruler), and knowing alot of experience and a very specific shape Im after is in every manifold you pull out of the box from me is exactly what you are paying for. One look at one of my finished intakes and you realize how much time must have been invested to perform the work you see in front of you.
Whats also ironic is that there have been a handful of negative intake threads related to other vendors that charge less (some alot less) than I.....that said I would like you to think for a minute who would be more likely to complain if they weren't satisfied....a customer spending a couple of hundred (or less) or someone spending five hundred if they received something they weren't thrilled with when they opened the box. I have been doing these FAST intakes for almost seven years and I'm fairly certain I don't have a single unhappy customer related to the execution (and ultimately the results) of the manifolds I have reworked for them....in fact most feel the money they spent was worth every penny.
Look....its obvious Vengeance spends less time than I porting these intakes.....anyone who has seen both will attest to that but why should that be a surprise to any of you that have a clue....your paying alot less money. While I also could also spend alot less time with the grinder (and charge alot less) I simply opt not to....it's not the type of business my "sidework" caters to. I'm a perfectionist and like to optimize everything I get involved in....be it heads, complete engines, a dry sump stand I invested far too much time in building....LOL....you name it (see the 416 dyno thread I recently started if you don't get that joke).
Ron's shop offers a good value to the end user....no doubt about it and he has alot of happy customers as well. IMO his manifold porting business is aimed more towards volume where my niche is more aimed at very high quality and a more detailed execution with much lower volume. For me its an art form and I don't care about how many I sell. The guy that is a good fit for me is a guy that normally spends a little more because he wants the best....wants the most airflow....wants every pony he can find and is willing to pay a little more to get it.
Also, if you want your intake painted Ron is your man....I just received an intake that a customer wanted me to port and paid Vengeance to do the logo removal and paintwork. I have to say I was very impressed with the work and done in a gloss black no less that potentially shows every single flaw. I actually PM'ed that customer last night ironically praising the work they did.
It's obvious both Vengeance and myself have their niche in this particular situation and only you guys reading this know which camp might be a better fit for you. In some respects you have to be pleased you have a wide array of choices....thats always a good thing. In the end you just have to be content with the choice you make.
Sorry for the long-winded response guys....guess I had more to say than I realized.
Cheers,
Tony
PS.....If you haven't seen this thread you ought to regarding some of the development work I was working on/involved in when FAST moved to the new 102 design which I happen to like alot btw. There is some good pics in here of some of the work I perform on these manifolds.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...-102-fast.html
Ive been trying to avoid this thread because in some respects it creates unnecessary tension and truthfully its been hashed over and over in other threads....but none as direct as this one.
However, its getting to the point I feel not responding would be doing myself an injustice so that said I think I'm going to just say whats on my mind and be done with it.
Life hasn't changed today, or yesterday, or tomorrow....and what I mean by that is you GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. Occasionally you find a deal or unique situation here and there, but more times than not that old adage is usually true. Some purchases may just take longer to realize that....
The million dollar question is what are you getting here for the additional money??
Lets look at that.....first off your getting an intake ported by the guy that started the entire FAST porting business....this is a fact. I pioneered that situation back in 2004 after I took one look at the original FAST 78 and FAST 90 and said to myself these intakes are far from optimal in an out of the box configuration. I then proceeded to spend a bunch of time on the flowbench experimenting and optimizing those particular intakes. Back then everyone questioned why would you port the FAST intake.....now if your looking to make big power and you dont have a ported FAST everyone questions that....pretty ironic in fact.
Lets also state the obvious that often gets overlooked....I have more experience than most when dealing with anything airflow related and have logged more hours in front of a flowbench than I can count (literally thousands). My "day job" is the R&D and Product Development Mgr at a highly respected company that specializes in airflow and how to properly manage it. My home life has me doing much of the same including building some very detailed highly optimized complete engines....My life is AIRFLOW guys as it relates directly to engines and power production....who do you want to trust porting your $800 over priced piece of plastic?
IMO there is no comparison of the intakes in question and this thread should have more data and input from people that have seen and experienced both or how can an opinion even be offered. BUT why should they compare when the price of what we are discussing is so different. Is it fair to compare a $1600 budget head to a $2500 aftermarket casting??
The overall level of execution, "neatness" and attention to detail, the consistency from port to port you measure with a dial indicator (not a ruler), and knowing alot of experience and a very specific shape Im after is in every manifold you pull out of the box from me is exactly what you are paying for. One look at one of my finished intakes and you realize how much time must have been invested to perform the work you see in front of you.
Whats also ironic is that there have been a handful of negative intake threads related to other vendors that charge less (some alot less) than I.....that said I would like you to think for a minute who would be more likely to complain if they weren't satisfied....a customer spending a couple of hundred (or less) or someone spending five hundred if they received something they weren't thrilled with when they opened the box. I have been doing these FAST intakes for almost seven years and I'm fairly certain I don't have a single unhappy customer related to the execution (and ultimately the results) of the manifolds I have reworked for them....in fact most feel the money they spent was worth every penny.
Look....its obvious Vengeance spends less time than I porting these intakes.....anyone who has seen both will attest to that but why should that be a surprise to any of you that have a clue....your paying alot less money. While I also could also spend alot less time with the grinder (and charge alot less) I simply opt not to....it's not the type of business my "sidework" caters to. I'm a perfectionist and like to optimize everything I get involved in....be it heads, complete engines, a dry sump stand I invested far too much time in building....LOL....you name it (see the 416 dyno thread I recently started if you don't get that joke).
Ron's shop offers a good value to the end user....no doubt about it and he has alot of happy customers as well. IMO his manifold porting business is aimed more towards volume where my niche is more aimed at very high quality and a more detailed execution with much lower volume. For me its an art form and I don't care about how many I sell. The guy that is a good fit for me is a guy that normally spends a little more because he wants the best....wants the most airflow....wants every pony he can find and is willing to pay a little more to get it.
Also, if you want your intake painted Ron is your man....I just received an intake that a customer wanted me to port and paid Vengeance to do the logo removal and paintwork. I have to say I was very impressed with the work and done in a gloss black no less that potentially shows every single flaw. I actually PM'ed that customer last night ironically praising the work they did.
It's obvious both Vengeance and myself have their niche in this particular situation and only you guys reading this know which camp might be a better fit for you. In some respects you have to be pleased you have a wide array of choices....thats always a good thing. In the end you just have to be content with the choice you make.
Sorry for the long-winded response guys....guess I had more to say than I realized.
Cheers,
Tony
PS.....If you haven't seen this thread you ought to regarding some of the development work I was working on/involved in when FAST moved to the new 102 design which I happen to like alot btw. There is some good pics in here of some of the work I perform on these manifolds.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...-102-fast.html
Last edited by Tony Mamo @ AFR; 03-22-2011 at 08:43 PM.
03-23-2011, 05:31 PM
#50
Well said tony. I didn't want to throw this stone but i have a vengeance ported intake. I am having tony port my intake that was done by vengeance. Not because i felt vengeance did a bad job. I am not having tony re do it to say vengeance is bad,ect. I'm just trying to get every last drop of power i can to reach my goals. I know tony opens them up bigger and puts alot of work into the probuct. I will notpost dyno resulta vengeance vs mammo from my retune,thats not what i wnt to do. I bought my heads,cam and intake from vengeance,they were a GREAT shop to deal with and on was right there to put the customer first(me). So yes tony will port a vengeance intake.
03-23-2011, 06:03 PM
#51
Well said tony. I didn't want to throw this stone but i have a vengeance ported intake. I am having tony port my intake that was done by vengeance. Not because i felt vengeance did a bad job. I am not having tony re do it to say vengeance is bad,ect. I'm just trying to get every last drop of power i can to reach my goals. I know tony opens them up bigger and puts alot of work into the probuct. I will notpost dyno resulta vengeance vs mammo from my retune,thats not what i wnt to do. I bought my heads,cam and intake from vengeance,they were a GREAT shop to deal with and on was right there to put the customer first(me). So yes tony will port a vengeance intake.
We could get a huge bet going on this...
Over/Under was 2hp right RON???
But seriously why would you not post the results, noone feelings will be hurt, both port places have their nitch...
That is like saying, "I will not post my dyno head results going from TSP 5.3 stg 2.5 heads to AFR 210 or TFS 215s heads..."
Budjet head vs high dollar head...same situation...
03-23-2011, 11:29 PM
#52
After reading this thread and the "What does it take to optimize your 102 FAST" thread I decided to post up my experience. I have a FAST 102 ported by Tony Mamo for my 347ci build that he also spec'd out for me. I hope to have it running before to long. Other than Tony answering my countless emails and patiently answering them all(Thanks Tony!) I am very satisfied with my Mamofied 102, and the port work is amazing to say the least; the accuracy from hand porting is superb!
I decided to measure mine with a caliper. I measured each intake runner and took the measurement in the middle of the runner making sure each measurement was level and at the same angle.
Cylinders in inches
1 = 1.046 2 = 1.042
3 = 1.049 4 = 1.050
5 = 1.046 6 = 1.042
7 = 1.040 8 = 1.042
For grins, I measured the intake runner on my untouched AFR 205s using the same methods and it measured at 1.092".
Pictures as follows:
Casey
I decided to measure mine with a caliper. I measured each intake runner and took the measurement in the middle of the runner making sure each measurement was level and at the same angle.
Cylinders in inches
1 = 1.046 2 = 1.042
3 = 1.049 4 = 1.050
5 = 1.046 6 = 1.042
7 = 1.040 8 = 1.042
For grins, I measured the intake runner on my untouched AFR 205s using the same methods and it measured at 1.092".
Pictures as follows:
Casey
Last edited by turbo; 03-23-2011 at 11:50 PM.
03-24-2011, 08:28 PM
#53
Because i'm not gettin into a this vs that thread with my intake. Vengeance is a great shop and i would buy from them again. Tony is also great at what he does. I didn't start this thread,so i'm not gunna be the one to finish it...lol Becides,i'll be on a different dyno for the first time in years.
03-25-2011, 06:01 AM
#54
Would this be my Gloss Black/Sunset Orange Metallic one?
Guys,
Also, if you want your intake painted Ron is your man....I just received an intake that a customer wanted me to port and paid Vengeance to do the logo removal and paintwork. I have to say I was very impressed with the work and done in a gloss black no less that potentially shows every single flaw. I actually PM'ed that customer last night ironically praising the work they did.
Cheers,
Tony
PS.....If you haven't seen this thread you ought to regarding some of the development work I was working on/involved in when FAST moved to the new 102 design which I happen to like alot btw. There is some good pics in here of some of the work I perform on these manifolds.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...-102-fast.html
Also, if you want your intake painted Ron is your man....I just received an intake that a customer wanted me to port and paid Vengeance to do the logo removal and paintwork. I have to say I was very impressed with the work and done in a gloss black no less that potentially shows every single flaw. I actually PM'ed that customer last night ironically praising the work they did.
Cheers,
Tony
PS.....If you haven't seen this thread you ought to regarding some of the development work I was working on/involved in when FAST moved to the new 102 design which I happen to like alot btw. There is some good pics in here of some of the work I perform on these manifolds.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...-102-fast.html
03-25-2011, 01:01 PM
#55
I want to know how these "ported" intakes are matching up with the head ports...best guess I suppose. Smooth walls until you trip on the uneven edges at the manifold/head interface. Oh and someone mentioned 2 hp difference...those dynos sure are accurate.
03-25-2011, 01:59 PM
#56
Truthfully having seen and flowtested alot of cylinder heads (and documenting most of the data) I know where most of the commonly available heads are sized at the entrance (and can do one for an AFR head in my sleep obviously), but if a customer has a head I'm not familiar with its common practice that I ask him for the widths of the intake ports before proceeding forward. Most port widths usually fall between 1.050 and 1.080....some of the bigger heads are wider and a handful of the smaller heads are more narrow but the range I just mentioned probably covers 80% of whats out there.
Truthfully, even if there is only a small positive step (where the intake ports slightly intrude into the manifold opening) it doesn't create an issue in regards to airflow/power because there is very little air moving against the walls of both the port and the intake....you have to move your probe off the wall before you see the airspeed really jump.....the center of the port is the most active obviously. The slow moving air along the walls of the port is commonly referred to as the boundary layer and almost provides a cushion for the faster air closer to the center to quickly ride over. Thats why surface finish isn't super critical as well. SHAPE is king when discussing flow paths of any kind.
-Tony
04-06-2011, 06:26 PM
#59
I just had two Fast 92's here last week, one ported by Vengeance and ported by Tony. The amount of port work was very similar, with both going into the intake a few inches.
Tony's intake was slightly rougher, but he did take the time to remove the inner shell and properly clean it. Both had been run and the Vengeance intake still had grinding material in the intake where it hadn't been properly cleaned, it would never cause a problem though.
Porting the intake while it's bolted to the heads that are being used is the only way to do it right, especially with something like a TFS 235 head where the intake port opening is already smaller on one side than an unported Fast. Porting the intake only makes it larger on that one side which only serves to make that step larger.
Why someone who already has a Vengeance ported Fast would send it to Tony to get it ported again without sending their heads is beyond me...
Tony's intake was slightly rougher, but he did take the time to remove the inner shell and properly clean it. Both had been run and the Vengeance intake still had grinding material in the intake where it hadn't been properly cleaned, it would never cause a problem though.
Porting the intake while it's bolted to the heads that are being used is the only way to do it right, especially with something like a TFS 235 head where the intake port opening is already smaller on one side than an unported Fast. Porting the intake only makes it larger on that one side which only serves to make that step larger.
Why someone who already has a Vengeance ported Fast would send it to Tony to get it ported again without sending their heads is beyond me...
04-06-2011, 06:51 PM
#60
agreed have to have the heads...hense why i did mine myself...also index the heads with a marker or razor blade so all that amazing porting can be put to use...the intake is pretty sloppy when just held in by the bolts and can move toward the front and rear of the car quit a bit...
I just had two Fast 92's here last week, one ported by Vengeance and ported by Tony. The amount of port work was very similar, with both going into the intake a few inches.
Tony's intake was slightly rougher, but he did take the time to remove the inner shell and properly clean it. Both had been run and the Vengeance intake still had grinding material in the intake where it hadn't been properly cleaned, it would never cause a problem though.
Porting the intake while it's bolted to the heads that are being used is the only way to do it right, especially with something like a TFS 235 head where the intake port opening is already smaller on one side than an unported Fast. Porting the intake only makes it larger on that one side which only serves to make that step larger.
Why someone who already has a Vengeance ported Fast would send it to Tony to get it ported again without sending their heads is beyond me...
Tony's intake was slightly rougher, but he did take the time to remove the inner shell and properly clean it. Both had been run and the Vengeance intake still had grinding material in the intake where it hadn't been properly cleaned, it would never cause a problem though.
Porting the intake while it's bolted to the heads that are being used is the only way to do it right, especially with something like a TFS 235 head where the intake port opening is already smaller on one side than an unported Fast. Porting the intake only makes it larger on that one side which only serves to make that step larger.
Why someone who already has a Vengeance ported Fast would send it to Tony to get it ported again without sending their heads is beyond me...
