why people love to hate the hotcam
03-22-2004, 04:14 PM
#41
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Originally Posted by Colonel
In other words, it's all in good fun! 
To the gentleman above that stated his old 230 cam drove better than the hotcam - I'd sure like to know more about whatever cam that was. I actually prefer a smaller LSA, so the 110 isn't a problem for me.
Cheers!
Dan - doing this in a few hours ->
03-22-2004, 04:19 PM
#42
To the gentleman above that stated his old 230 cam drove better than the hotcam - I'd sure like to know more about whatever cam that was. I actually prefer a smaller LSA, so the 110 isn't a problem for me.
03-22-2004, 04:49 PM
#43
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1) I do have a good idea what I'm doing, that's why I appreciate the strong points of a slower ramp rate cam. Again knowing what I'm doing means that the Hotcam WOULD be a consideration .... though I'd probably lean more towards the ASA cam.
2) I'll bet you $100 that it won't
Ever seen an actual graph of valve motion ? Notice how they kind of bounce a few times when they're snapped shut ? Even with good springs? When you snap them shut quicker they bounce more. This means that the normal path of cooling thru the seat is instead being used to heat the valve i.e. you now have exhaust gasses flowing past the seat and heating it instead of having good contact that the cooling would occur thru. You would burn an exhaust valve. Also that extreme exhaust valve heat would travel up the valve, thru the retainer and heat your springs up to the point where they lost tension, creating more valve bounce and possibly even valve float. It would be a circle that would end in your pistons having valvestems sticking out of them + after finding out you needed a new engine you'd still have to give me $100
3) True about the reliability. This in between spot you speak of is exactly what I'm talking about. This spot occurs in differant places for differant applications, differant people, and differant sized wallets. That's why there is a place for slower ramprates.
4) Yes there were some bad Hotcams that ruined some engines. There were also some bad 918 springs that had the same affect. Funny how you trust one, but not the other. EVERY manufacturer has had QC problems at some point if they've been in business for any length of tjme. The good ones address the problems and move on .... as both GM and CC did.
I'm a true believer in aftermarket parts too. Don't think I'm not. My '71 doesn't have many GM parts in it believe me. My whole point is that some peoples applications are worlds removed from yours. Don't automatically discount other options because they don't work for you. You have to know what they do with their car, what they can put up with, and what the word "reliable" means to them. If they don't like noisy valvetrains then XE-R lobes are out. If they don't want to change valve springs once a year then same thing. Differant strokes for differant folks. I'll be running a mild ramp rate cam in my car and kicking major *** with it in ORR. Think I'm misguided ? I do have a spare $100 bill that's yours for the taking ! LOL !
2) I'll bet you $100 that it won't
Ever seen an actual graph of valve motion ? Notice how they kind of bounce a few times when they're snapped shut ? Even with good springs? When you snap them shut quicker they bounce more. This means that the normal path of cooling thru the seat is instead being used to heat the valve i.e. you now have exhaust gasses flowing past the seat and heating it instead of having good contact that the cooling would occur thru. You would burn an exhaust valve. Also that extreme exhaust valve heat would travel up the valve, thru the retainer and heat your springs up to the point where they lost tension, creating more valve bounce and possibly even valve float. It would be a circle that would end in your pistons having valvestems sticking out of them + after finding out you needed a new engine you'd still have to give me $100 3) True about the reliability. This in between spot you speak of is exactly what I'm talking about. This spot occurs in differant places for differant applications, differant people, and differant sized wallets. That's why there is a place for slower ramprates.
4) Yes there were some bad Hotcams that ruined some engines. There were also some bad 918 springs that had the same affect. Funny how you trust one, but not the other. EVERY manufacturer has had QC problems at some point if they've been in business for any length of tjme. The good ones address the problems and move on .... as both GM and CC did.
I'm a true believer in aftermarket parts too. Don't think I'm not. My '71 doesn't have many GM parts in it believe me. My whole point is that some peoples applications are worlds removed from yours. Don't automatically discount other options because they don't work for you. You have to know what they do with their car, what they can put up with, and what the word "reliable" means to them. If they don't like noisy valvetrains then XE-R lobes are out. If they don't want to change valve springs once a year then same thing. Differant strokes for differant folks. I'll be running a mild ramp rate cam in my car and kicking major *** with it in ORR. Think I'm misguided ? I do have a spare $100 bill that's yours for the taking ! LOL !
03-22-2004, 05:59 PM
#44
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Originally Posted by Colonel
"I'm enjoying the banter going back and forth on this issue and hope that ya'll can keep it up a little while longer."
I'm enjoying it too but every now and then I feel I should point out that as with any debate, ideas, tone, and intent can come across brashly, exagerated, or otherwise misunderstood in print to some...so all should keep that in mind. We're here to learn, teach, and express our opinions hopefully for the benefit of those who are listening....with a little bit of sarchasim and ribbing thrown in for good measure.
In other words, it's all in good fun!
I'm enjoying it too but every now and then I feel I should point out that as with any debate, ideas, tone, and intent can come across brashly, exagerated, or otherwise misunderstood in print to some...so all should keep that in mind. We're here to learn, teach, and express our opinions hopefully for the benefit of those who are listening....with a little bit of sarchasim and ribbing thrown in for good measure.
In other words, it's all in good fun!
I also, am hoping that I'm not coming across too harshly. I've always respected the advice you've given and don't mean to discount your experiences in these matters. I always try to leave room for the fact ( as remote as it might be
) that I might be wrong. After all, if we don't leave room for this, then we've eliminated to possibility of learning something new. Cheers
03-22-2004, 06:20 PM
#45
TECH Senior Member
Ohh, not too harshly at all...not at all. I've been around the whole net thing a long time...plenty of time to grow some pretty thick skin.
"I always try to leave room for the fact ( as remote as it might be ) that I might be wrong. After all, if we don't leave room for this, then we've eliminated to possibility of learning something new."
Very true.
BTW, you get to keep that $100. I'm not about to test the theory. Not for 5 minutes and certainly not for 40! LOL! It runs just fine and I think I'll keep it that way. Not that I think it'll snap or anything...ehhummm...but $100 isn't a good enough reason to chance it.
"I always try to leave room for the fact ( as remote as it might be
) that I might be wrong. After all, if we don't leave room for this, then we've eliminated to possibility of learning something new."Very true.
BTW, you get to keep that $100. I'm not about to test the theory. Not for 5 minutes and certainly not for 40! LOL! It runs just fine and I think I'll keep it that way. Not that I think it'll snap or anything...ehhummm...but $100 isn't a good enough reason to chance it.
03-22-2004, 07:03 PM
#46
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OK back to cam talk what cam aftermarket cam with slower ramp rates (I'm learning) similar to the hotcam (reliability wise) are out there for the about the same cost.
please give me your thoughts on this, let's say LS6 springs are the limit what's some good cams that can run with theses springs??
THANKS
please give me your thoughts on this, let's say LS6 springs are the limit what's some good cams that can run with theses springs??
THANKS
03-22-2004, 07:10 PM
#47
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Originally Posted by Racehead
1) I do have a good idea what I'm doing, that's why I appreciate the strong points of a slower ramp rate cam. Again knowing what I'm doing means that the Hotcam WOULD be a consideration .... though I'd probably lean more towards the ASA cam.
2) I'll bet you $100 that it won't Ever seen an actual graph of valve motion ? Notice how they kind of bounce a few times when they're snapped shut ? Even with good springs? When you snap them shut quicker they bounce more. This means that the normal path of cooling thru the seat is instead being used to heat the valve i.e. you now have exhaust gasses flowing past the seat and heating it instead of having good contact that the cooling would occur thru. You would burn an exhaust valve. Also that extreme exhaust valve heat would travel up the valve, thru the retainer and heat your springs up to the point where they lost tension, creating more valve bounce and possibly even valve float. It would be a circle that would end in your pistons having valvestems sticking out of them + after finding out you needed a new engine you'd still have to give me $100
3) True about the reliability. This in between spot you speak of is exactly what I'm talking about. This spot occurs in differant places for differant applications, differant people, and differant sized wallets. That's why there is a place for slower ramprates.
4) Yes there were some bad Hotcams that ruined some engines. There were also some bad 918 springs that had the same affect. Funny how you trust one, but not the other. EVERY manufacturer has had QC problems at some point if they've been in business for any length of tjme. The good ones address the problems and move on .... as both GM and CC did.
I'm a true believer in aftermarket parts too. Don't think I'm not. My '71 doesn't have many GM parts in it believe me. My whole point is that some peoples applications are worlds removed from yours. Don't automatically discount other options because they don't work for you. You have to know what they do with their car, what they can put up with, and what the word "reliable" means to them. If they don't like noisy valvetrains then XE-R lobes are out. If they don't want to change valve springs once a year then same thing. Differant strokes for differant folks. I'll be running a mild ramp rate cam in my car and kicking major *** with it in ORR. Think I'm misguided ? I do have a spare $100 bill that's yours for the taking ! LOL !
2) I'll bet you $100 that it won't
Ever seen an actual graph of valve motion ? Notice how they kind of bounce a few times when they're snapped shut ? Even with good springs? When you snap them shut quicker they bounce more. This means that the normal path of cooling thru the seat is instead being used to heat the valve i.e. you now have exhaust gasses flowing past the seat and heating it instead of having good contact that the cooling would occur thru. You would burn an exhaust valve. Also that extreme exhaust valve heat would travel up the valve, thru the retainer and heat your springs up to the point where they lost tension, creating more valve bounce and possibly even valve float. It would be a circle that would end in your pistons having valvestems sticking out of them + after finding out you needed a new engine you'd still have to give me $100 3) True about the reliability. This in between spot you speak of is exactly what I'm talking about. This spot occurs in differant places for differant applications, differant people, and differant sized wallets. That's why there is a place for slower ramprates.
4) Yes there were some bad Hotcams that ruined some engines. There were also some bad 918 springs that had the same affect. Funny how you trust one, but not the other. EVERY manufacturer has had QC problems at some point if they've been in business for any length of tjme. The good ones address the problems and move on .... as both GM and CC did.
I'm a true believer in aftermarket parts too. Don't think I'm not. My '71 doesn't have many GM parts in it believe me. My whole point is that some peoples applications are worlds removed from yours. Don't automatically discount other options because they don't work for you. You have to know what they do with their car, what they can put up with, and what the word "reliable" means to them. If they don't like noisy valvetrains then XE-R lobes are out. If they don't want to change valve springs once a year then same thing. Differant strokes for differant folks. I'll be running a mild ramp rate cam in my car and kicking major *** with it in ORR. Think I'm misguided ? I do have a spare $100 bill that's yours for the taking ! LOL !
So what cam would you suggest for my 1998 A4 I have lid catback and would like macs and a small to med cam for a summer daily driver, about 60 miles a day.
Like I said before I like a 12sec car. I am not sure weather I want a converter or not ????????
03-22-2004, 07:28 PM
#48
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It takes alot more info than that for me to recommend a cam to somebody. Why do you want a cam at all ?
1) Do you want it to sound like it has a cam ?
2) Do you mind changing valve springs at least once a year or do you want stock like maintenance free performance ?
3) How do you feel about your engine having a tick tick tick sound of a sewing machine ?
4) Are you planning on using the stock shift points ?
Answer these questions and then I'll ask you some more. When you anwer those then I'll make a recommendation. Sorry, but if you want a quicker answer then I'm not the guy to ask.
1) Do you want it to sound like it has a cam ?
2) Do you mind changing valve springs at least once a year or do you want stock like maintenance free performance ?
3) How do you feel about your engine having a tick tick tick sound of a sewing machine ?
4) Are you planning on using the stock shift points ?
Answer these questions and then I'll ask you some more. When you anwer those then I'll make a recommendation. Sorry, but if you want a quicker answer then I'm not the guy to ask.
03-22-2004, 08:09 PM
#49
Yes, with a hotcam you won't have to change the springs much.
But you criticize aftermarket cams because you say that they're "unreliable" with 918 springs. So then why not step up to DUAL springs? Wouldn't it be just as reliable as a hotcam then?
But you criticize aftermarket cams because you say that they're "unreliable" with 918 springs. So then why not step up to DUAL springs? Wouldn't it be just as reliable as a hotcam then?
03-22-2004, 08:53 PM
#50
TECH Addict
I have not criticized aftermarket cams at all. I'm a firm believer in aftermarket cams. They are not constrained by the same set of rules that OEM manufacturers are. I myself have a thumping cam in my '71 in my sig. I said that there is a reliability price that is paid when you use extreme ramp rates. And there is. It doesn't matter if GM makes the cam or some aftermarket company, this simple physical reality holds true. I'm perfectly willing to pay this price in pursuit of more performance on my '71 just as many of you are. It's just that many people don't want to pay this price for performance and yet people criticize their decisions.
Remember that we're not talking about the reliability of the cam itself so much as the entire valvetrain. And remember that valvetrain failures frequently mean you buy a new longblock. So let's say you put double springs on your typical XE-R lobed cam. You now have the entire valvetrain that is under much more stress from the increased spring pressure. You have more wear occurring between the cam and lifter, lifter and pushrod, pushrod and rocker, rocker bearings, rocker and valve tip. See a trend here ? How are you going to have stock like reliabilty with the higher spring pressures that an XE-R lobe requires ? ....... You aren't, that's how. You can replace every single component with Jesel or similiar quality parts and you still have not achieved stock or even near stock like reliability. Some people just refuse to acknowledge this fact. And they criticize other people who go with milder ramprates that require less spring pressure because "you can get 20 more hp out of this other super duper cam so that means your stupid if you choose anything less" . Don't get me wrong there is a definite need for an extreme lobed cam. But there is also a need for the milder lobed cams too.
Remember that we're not talking about the reliability of the cam itself so much as the entire valvetrain. And remember that valvetrain failures frequently mean you buy a new longblock. So let's say you put double springs on your typical XE-R lobed cam. You now have the entire valvetrain that is under much more stress from the increased spring pressure. You have more wear occurring between the cam and lifter, lifter and pushrod, pushrod and rocker, rocker bearings, rocker and valve tip. See a trend here ? How are you going to have stock like reliabilty with the higher spring pressures that an XE-R lobe requires ? ....... You aren't, that's how. You can replace every single component with Jesel or similiar quality parts and you still have not achieved stock or even near stock like reliability. Some people just refuse to acknowledge this fact. And they criticize other people who go with milder ramprates that require less spring pressure because "you can get 20 more hp out of this other super duper cam so that means your stupid if you choose anything less" . Don't get me wrong there is a definite need for an extreme lobed cam. But there is also a need for the milder lobed cams too.
03-22-2004, 08:56 PM
#51
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Originally Posted by Racehead
It takes alot more info than that for me to recommend a cam to somebody. Why do you want a cam at all ?
1) Do you want it to sound like it has a cam ?
2) Do you mind changing valve springs at least once a year or do you want stock like maintenance free performance ?
3) How do you feel about your engine having a tick tick tick sound of a sewing machine ?
4) Are you planning on using the stock shift points ?
Answer these questions and then I'll ask you some more. When you anwer those then I'll make a recommendation. Sorry, but if you want a quicker answer then I'm not the guy to ask.
1) Do you want it to sound like it has a cam ?
2) Do you mind changing valve springs at least once a year or do you want stock like maintenance free performance ?
3) How do you feel about your engine having a tick tick tick sound of a sewing machine ?
4) Are you planning on using the stock shift points ?
Answer these questions and then I'll ask you some more. When you anwer those then I'll make a recommendation. Sorry, but if you want a quicker answer then I'm not the guy to ask.
2) no want more stock reliability (at least close)
3) don't really care for the tick tick tick
4) would like to stay under 6200
5)I would have LS1 SPEED INC. do tuning, maybe install two not sure yet there 4 hours away long way to drive on a bad tune after install of new parts.
03-22-2004, 09:08 PM
#52
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You know, as far as the tick tick tick sound goes, I'm planning to go with a set of the harland sharp rollers with my h/c swap. Might add a little power by itself and will certainly quieten things down.
Cheers!
Dan
Cheers!
Dan
03-22-2004, 09:44 PM
#53
Originally Posted by Racehead
So let's say you put double springs on your typical XE-R lobed cam. You now have the entire valvetrain that is under much more stress from the increased spring pressure. You have more wear occurring between the cam and lifter, lifter and pushrod, pushrod and rocker, rocker bearings, rocker and valve tip.
I can see were their is extra stress on rocker bearings etc.
See a trend here ? How are you going to have stock like reliabilty with the higher spring pressures that an XE-R lobe requires ? ....... You aren't, that's how. You can replace every single component with Jesel or similiar quality parts and you still have not achieved stock or even near stock like reliability.
Stock reliability/durability isn't all that great with stock valve springs.
My stock valve springs were getting weak with ~25,000 miles on them and really need to be changed out. That's about as often as dual's need to be changed with some of the aggressive cams. Anyone that thinks the valve springs will last forever with a hot cam is fooling themselves. If the car sees rpm and in time even a hot cam'd car will need to have the springs freshed up.
Several of the fast ramp cam engine failures were due to folks not changing springs out as frequently as they should. This is a maintance issue in some cases not really a cam or spring issue.
Is there a need for less than XE-R ramps sure. Are XE-R ramps so fast they are scary? I don't think so I have 9,000 miles on mine and the car sees daily driver useage.
The HotCam cars I've seen have a very nasty idle & lope. If someone wants that mean as **** sound it's hard to beat a HotCam.
03-22-2004, 09:55 PM
#54
TECH Addict
1) Do you plan on installing a torque converter anytime soon ?
2) Do you plan on changing the rear end gears anytime soon ?
3) Tell me why you want a cam, what do you want your car to do that it doesn't do now. Which is more important to you, taking off from a stoplight quicker, or being able to pass a row of cars on a 2 lane hwy faster.
4) Is the low cost of the Hotcam a strong selling point to you, or would it make any differance at all if the cam costed $150 more ?
2) Do you plan on changing the rear end gears anytime soon ?
3) Tell me why you want a cam, what do you want your car to do that it doesn't do now. Which is more important to you, taking off from a stoplight quicker, or being able to pass a row of cars on a 2 lane hwy faster.
4) Is the low cost of the Hotcam a strong selling point to you, or would it make any differance at all if the cam costed $150 more ?
03-22-2004, 10:16 PM
#55
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Originally Posted by 99 Black Bird T/A
More wear between the cam and roller lifter? I had the impression basically roller lifters basically eliminate the wear issue between cam and lifter when set up correctly.
I can see were their is extra stress on rocker bearings etc.
If you want stock reliability with a cam swap, it seems to me the choice is the 02 LS6 and similar.
Stock reliability/durability isn't all that great with stock valve springs.
My stock valve springs were getting weak with ~25,000 miles on them and really need to be changed out. That's about as often as dual's need to be changed with some of the aggressive cams. Anyone that thinks the valve springs will last forever with a hot cam is fooling themselves. If the car sees rpm and in time even a hot cam'd car will need to have the springs freshed up.
Several of the fast ramp cam engine failures were due to folks not changing springs out as frequently as they should. This is a maintance issue in some cases not really a cam or spring issue.
Is there a need for less than XE-R ramps sure. Are XE-R ramps so fast they are scary? I don't think so I have 9,000 miles on mine and the car sees daily driver useage.
The HotCam cars I've seen have a very nasty idle & lope. If someone wants that mean as **** sound it's hard to beat a HotCam.
I can see were their is extra stress on rocker bearings etc.
If you want stock reliability with a cam swap, it seems to me the choice is the 02 LS6 and similar.
Stock reliability/durability isn't all that great with stock valve springs.
My stock valve springs were getting weak with ~25,000 miles on them and really need to be changed out. That's about as often as dual's need to be changed with some of the aggressive cams. Anyone that thinks the valve springs will last forever with a hot cam is fooling themselves. If the car sees rpm and in time even a hot cam'd car will need to have the springs freshed up.
Several of the fast ramp cam engine failures were due to folks not changing springs out as frequently as they should. This is a maintance issue in some cases not really a cam or spring issue.
Is there a need for less than XE-R ramps sure. Are XE-R ramps so fast they are scary? I don't think so I have 9,000 miles on mine and the car sees daily driver useage.
The HotCam cars I've seen have a very nasty idle & lope. If someone wants that mean as **** sound it's hard to beat a HotCam.
. What do I care how long somebody elses car lasts ? How do you know your springs are weak ? Did you measure them ? What should the stock spring pressures be and what were they ? Were you getting valve float ? I've heard of more than just a few LS1's with near 100,000 miles on the clock still dynoing what they did when new. That doesn't happen with valve springs that have gone bad. Got any XE-R lobe/918 storys like that ? Didn't think so. My stock valve train has 34,000 miles on it which includes 2 racing schools, many many open track events, many drag strip passes, and as of this June it's second ORR event which means 40 minutes of WFO 5500 + rpm racing. The springs are still fine, although I wouldn't say as good as new. Every valve spring in the world goes bad sooner or later, it doesn't matter what cam is in it.
03-22-2004, 10:37 PM
#56
Hey I ran out and bought a hotcam today!! It rocks!
Just kidding, still hate them
Racehead, most of the mature people on this board can agree to disagree, i dont lose any sleep if someoen has an opinion other than mine. This place would be kinda boring if it were otherwise. It would just be one big rulebook if so
Just kidding, still hate them
Racehead, most of the mature people on this board can agree to disagree, i dont lose any sleep if someoen has an opinion other than mine. This place would be kinda boring if it were otherwise. It would just be one big rulebook if so
03-22-2004, 10:58 PM
#57
TECH Addict
Originally Posted by GrannySShifting
Racehead, most of the mature people on this board can agree to disagree, i dont lose any sleep if someoen has an opinion other than mine. This place would be kinda boring if it were otherwise. It would just be one big rulebook if so
I'm thinking I'll probably sleep pretty good tonight too ....my wife is ovulating !
03-22-2004, 11:14 PM
#58
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Originally Posted by Racehead
1) Do you plan on installing a torque converter anytime soon ?
2) Do you plan on changing the rear end gears anytime soon ?
3) Tell me why you want a cam, what do you want your car to do that it doesn't do now. Which is more important to you, taking off from a stoplight quicker, or being able to pass a row of cars on a 2 lane hwy faster.
4) Is the low cost of the Hotcam a strong selling point to you, or would it make any differance at all if the cam costed $150 more ?
2) Do you plan on changing the rear end gears anytime soon ?
3) Tell me why you want a cam, what do you want your car to do that it doesn't do now. Which is more important to you, taking off from a stoplight quicker, or being able to pass a row of cars on a 2 lane hwy faster.
4) Is the low cost of the Hotcam a strong selling point to you, or would it make any differance at all if the cam costed $150 more ?
2) no never 3.23's ,Most of my driving is hi-way.
3)I would like a more aggressive sound.
performance wise looking for more lowends and midrange , mostly if possible alittle more throughout the entire range. For some reason since I was a kid I always wanted a mid 12sec car that's it.
4) yes the price is the selling point for me and the hypothetical reliability.
Yes I would be interested in something different for alittle more if it suits my needs. that is what I was hoping for some suggestions from everyone.I just don't believe bigger is better for me?????????
When it comes to a cam and springs I want to go with new parts.
03-22-2004, 11:38 PM
#59
TECH Addict
Well heres the deal then. It sounds like a hotcam would suit your needs just about perfectly. You could also go for a compcams XR269HR, this is a cam with a fairly mild ramp rate with .525/.532 lift that would also be easy on the valvetrain.It's a 216/220 cam that would perform similarlyto the hotcam, but would cost more and wouldn't have that aggressive idle and general sound that it sounds like you want. It'd be a smooth idle all the way. You could easily run it without tuning however. I would choose between these 2 cams if I were you. It does sound like the hotcam is exactly what you want though.
03-23-2004, 01:30 PM
#60
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The HotCam cars I've seen have a very nasty idle & lope. If someone wants that mean as **** sound it's hard to beat a HotCam.