Which AFR heads for a 346 street beast?
02-06-2012, 10:21 AM
#1
Which AFR heads for a 346 street beast? Which AFR heads would be better suited for a 95% street driven 02 WS6 that will sport a cam in the lower 230's intake and mid to upper 230's exhaust. Car already has long tubes, dual exhaust, lid, etc. Goal for the car is to be right at 450 rwhp and around 420-430 rwtq. Car is a weekend warior and what's important is power under the curve. Would the AFR 210 heads be best or would the AFR 215's be a better choice. Would I sacrafice under the curve power/torque by going the 215 route?
02-06-2012, 12:02 PM
#2
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Tony's spec-ing me a top end package right now for my car which is a 99% street car. We went with the 215's because Tony's thought was that I'd get a little more top end, and with it only being 5cc's difference it'd only be just a little. He said "you won't even be able to feel 5cc's". Cam is 227/227 .617" .617" (I think) lift on a 114lsa.
02-06-2012, 12:31 PM
#4
Tony's spec-ing me a top end package right now for my car which is a 99% street car. We went with the 215's because Tony's thought was that I'd get a little more top end, and with it only being 5cc's difference it'd only be just a little. He said "you won't even be able to feel 5cc's". Cam is 227/227 .617" .617" (I think) lift on a 114lsa.
02-06-2012, 12:36 PM
#5
Well, I've pretty much narrowed it down to either AFR's or the new PRC 215's. I'd like to see more combos and numbers from each head, but both are so new, there really isn't much out there in terms of dyno numbers/graphs. Believe me, I've searched. From what I have seen in terms of the new PRC 215's, they are making some killer numbers. I also like the fact that you can get more of a mill without loosing piston to valve clearence due to a non 15 degree valve angle.
02-06-2012, 12:42 PM
#6
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AFR site says "AFR is proud to release our 215cc LS1/LS2/LS6 version of our popular Gen III product line which is aimed specifically to maximize 4” bore combinations (364 - 408 CID). However this head is very versatile and could also be considered for aggressive 346 applications"
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02-06-2012, 03:01 PM
#9
215's would be the way to go IMO....
You have a reasonably aggressive cam and the slightly larger cross section of the 215's would boost the higher RPM potential of the package you described.
IMO I would call your set-up a hot street deal....its aimed mainly at performance with some civility in mind versus a 224 ish cammed car which is still aimed at performance of course but favoring the street side of the equation where low RPM torque and slightly better idle quality/driving manners is more important (say in a CTSV application or a milder Vette/F-body application).
Point is your set-up would work a little better with the 215's where the latter would be better suited for the 210's......keeping in mind you couldn't make a bad choice between them.....its all about what angle of the build your trying to optimize.
Speaking of optimized, I've tweaked a few of these 215's with excellent results if your looking to maximize your airflow while still running a conservatively sized port for better low RPM response (and overall explosiveness) and still being able to generate a big dog number upstairs from the increased peak CFM gains. It adds to the budget of course and truthfully an out of the box 215 is more than adequate (but when is "enough" ever really OK in this hobby.....LOL). Im actually helping Rickenbacker who posted above with this exact situation.
Anyway....OP....if you want to reach me directly to discuss anything my direct line is 661-705-8508
Good luck whichever direction you choose to pursue....lots of good choices....the trick is finding the best one to suit your needs and budget.
-Tony
PS....The only issue running these heads on a smaller 3.900 bore is simply to make sure you run a larger diameter head gasket (typically 4.135 - 4.160 diameter) to seal the larger unshrouded chamber. That doesn't pose a problem whatsoever.....only offers a little more room around the valve for added flow etc.
You have a reasonably aggressive cam and the slightly larger cross section of the 215's would boost the higher RPM potential of the package you described.
IMO I would call your set-up a hot street deal....its aimed mainly at performance with some civility in mind versus a 224 ish cammed car which is still aimed at performance of course but favoring the street side of the equation where low RPM torque and slightly better idle quality/driving manners is more important (say in a CTSV application or a milder Vette/F-body application).
Point is your set-up would work a little better with the 215's where the latter would be better suited for the 210's......keeping in mind you couldn't make a bad choice between them.....its all about what angle of the build your trying to optimize.
Speaking of optimized, I've tweaked a few of these 215's with excellent results if your looking to maximize your airflow while still running a conservatively sized port for better low RPM response (and overall explosiveness) and still being able to generate a big dog number upstairs from the increased peak CFM gains. It adds to the budget of course and truthfully an out of the box 215 is more than adequate (but when is "enough" ever really OK in this hobby.....LOL). Im actually helping Rickenbacker who posted above with this exact situation.
Anyway....OP....if you want to reach me directly to discuss anything my direct line is 661-705-8508
Good luck whichever direction you choose to pursue....lots of good choices....the trick is finding the best one to suit your needs and budget.
-Tony
PS....The only issue running these heads on a smaller 3.900 bore is simply to make sure you run a larger diameter head gasket (typically 4.135 - 4.160 diameter) to seal the larger unshrouded chamber. That doesn't pose a problem whatsoever.....only offers a little more room around the valve for added flow etc.
02-06-2012, 03:41 PM
#10
215's would be the way to go IMO....
You have a reasonably aggressive cam and the slightly larger cross section of the 215's would boost the higher RPM potential of the package you described.
IMO I would call your set-up a hot street deal....its aimed mainly at performance with some civility in mind versus a 224 ish cammed car which is still aimed at performance of course but favoring the street side of the equation where low RPM torque and slightly better idle quality/driving manners is more important (say in a CTSV application or a milder Vette/F-body application).
Point is your set-up would work a little better with the 215's where the latter would be better suited for the 210's......keeping in mind you couldn't make a bad choice between them.....its all about what angle of the build your trying to optimize.
Speaking of optimized, I've tweaked a few of these 215's with excellent results if your looking to maximize your airflow while still running a conservatively sized port for better low RPM response (and overall explosiveness) and still being able to generate a big dog number upstairs from the increased peak CFM gains. It adds to the budget of course and truthfully an out of the box 215 is more than adequate (but when is "enough" ever really OK in this hobby.....LOL). Im actually helping Rickenbacker who posted above with this exact situation.
Anyway....OP....if you want to reach me directly to discuss anything my direct line is 661-705-8508
Good luck whichever direction you choose to pursue....lots of good choices....the trick is finding the best one to suit your needs and budget.
-Tony
PS....The only issue running these heads on a smaller 3.900 bore is simply to make sure you run a larger diameter head gasket (typically 4.135 - 4.160 diameter) to seal the larger unshrouded chamber. That doesn't pose a problem whatsoever.....only offers a little more room around the valve for added flow etc.
You have a reasonably aggressive cam and the slightly larger cross section of the 215's would boost the higher RPM potential of the package you described.
IMO I would call your set-up a hot street deal....its aimed mainly at performance with some civility in mind versus a 224 ish cammed car which is still aimed at performance of course but favoring the street side of the equation where low RPM torque and slightly better idle quality/driving manners is more important (say in a CTSV application or a milder Vette/F-body application).
Point is your set-up would work a little better with the 215's where the latter would be better suited for the 210's......keeping in mind you couldn't make a bad choice between them.....its all about what angle of the build your trying to optimize.
Speaking of optimized, I've tweaked a few of these 215's with excellent results if your looking to maximize your airflow while still running a conservatively sized port for better low RPM response (and overall explosiveness) and still being able to generate a big dog number upstairs from the increased peak CFM gains. It adds to the budget of course and truthfully an out of the box 215 is more than adequate (but when is "enough" ever really OK in this hobby.....LOL). Im actually helping Rickenbacker who posted above with this exact situation.
Anyway....OP....if you want to reach me directly to discuss anything my direct line is 661-705-8508
Good luck whichever direction you choose to pursue....lots of good choices....the trick is finding the best one to suit your needs and budget.
-Tony
PS....The only issue running these heads on a smaller 3.900 bore is simply to make sure you run a larger diameter head gasket (typically 4.135 - 4.160 diameter) to seal the larger unshrouded chamber. That doesn't pose a problem whatsoever.....only offers a little more room around the valve for added flow etc.
Thanks for replying to my thread Tony. I was hoping you'd come in. I've heard nothing but good things about AFR heads and what really has lead me to want the AFR heads is the great low end and mid flow numbers. Being a street driven car, that is what I'm looking for. But, I could also see myself wanting to build a 383 or 402 down the road, so the 215 makes the most sense. I just wanted to make sure by going with the 215, I wouldn't be loosing any under the curve power/torque over the 210. When I'm ready to pull the trigger, I will definatley hit you up Tony. Thank you for all the great information.
Oh, by the way, how do you think a cam around the size of a 229/236 111 LSA would do with these heads? Would you suggest something smaller for better torque/power under the curve? Like I said, numbers wise, I'd love to reach or eclipse 450 rwhp, but really want torque nubers close to 420-425.
02-06-2012, 04:40 PM
#13
Thanks for replying to my thread Tony. I was hoping you'd come in. I've heard nothing but good things about AFR heads and what really has lead me to want the AFR heads is the great low end and mid flow numbers. Being a street driven car, that is what I'm looking for. But, I could also see myself wanting to build a 383 or 402 down the road, so the 215 makes the most sense. I just wanted to make sure by going with the 215, I wouldn't be loosing any under the curve power/torque over the 210. When I'm ready to pull the trigger, I will definatley hit you up Tony. Thank you for all the great information.
Oh, by the way, how do you think a cam around the size of a 229/236 111 LSA would do with these heads? Would you suggest something smaller for better torque/power under the curve? Like I said, numbers wise, I'd love to reach or eclipse 450 rwhp, but really want torque nubers close to 420-425.
Oh, by the way, how do you think a cam around the size of a 229/236 111 LSA would do with these heads? Would you suggest something smaller for better torque/power under the curve? Like I said, numbers wise, I'd love to reach or eclipse 450 rwhp, but really want torque nubers close to 420-425.
This head has a really strong exhaust to intake relationship.....a single pattern (or close) on a wider LSA to reduce overlap (and potential over scavenging which will hurt power) is bonus here.
Shoot me a PM.....we can talk about the entire heads/cam combo and I can get you dialed in
2.57 and 2.64 respectively....
Hope this helps
-Tony
02-06-2012, 07:17 PM
#15
Tony is great to deal with, and very knowledgeable! He has been great at answering some dumb questions Ive had, and he helped me out when I dropped a valve in my last engine.
Im only running AFR 205s, and a 224/228 cam, and I have torque every where! This motor, with full bolt ons (and ported FAST IIRC) made 470rwhp in the previous owner's f-body, STOCK bottom end BTW.
My friend's 'Hawk made 448/434 with 205s, and I believe the same 224/228 cam, through a stock MAF, TB, and LS6 intake.
Im only running AFR 205s, and a 224/228 cam, and I have torque every where! This motor, with full bolt ons (and ported FAST IIRC) made 470rwhp in the previous owner's f-body, STOCK bottom end BTW.
My friend's 'Hawk made 448/434 with 205s, and I believe the same 224/228 cam, through a stock MAF, TB, and LS6 intake.
02-07-2012, 10:07 AM
#16
I see what you mean regarding the cam. Since these heads flow so well on the exhaust side as well, something more along the lines of a 230/232 or 230/234 would be better. Will having the cam on a 111 LSA not work well with these heads? I really would like a 111 LSA because I want this cam to have a good amount of lope.
And no, I don't plan, or want to fly-cut.
[QUOTE=Tony Mamo @ AFR;15931791]Wrong cam for sure with these heads....plus are you planning on flycutting?? That plays a huge role in camshaft choice and aggressiveness.
This head has a really strong exhaust to intake relationship.....a single pattern (or close) on a wider LSA to reduce overlap (and potential over scavenging which will hurt power) is bonus here.
Shoot me a PM.....we can talk about the entire heads/cam combo and I can get you dialed in
And no, I don't plan, or want to fly-cut.
[QUOTE=Tony Mamo @ AFR;15931791]Wrong cam for sure with these heads....plus are you planning on flycutting?? That plays a huge role in camshaft choice and aggressiveness.
This head has a really strong exhaust to intake relationship.....a single pattern (or close) on a wider LSA to reduce overlap (and potential over scavenging which will hurt power) is bonus here.
Shoot me a PM.....we can talk about the entire heads/cam combo and I can get you dialed in
02-07-2012, 11:19 AM
#17
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Tony has more experience with what works best with his heads but i've seen wider duration splits used with success on other AFR heads. LSx is alittle different port shape tho but some cam grinders will tell you they dont look at exhaust/intake flow ratios as much to determine what the engine wants as far as duration split goes. But these ports do seem to like alittle less overlap with wider lsa's from the cam guys i've talked to.
02-07-2012, 12:20 PM
#18
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That's pretty much what Tony told me, and part of the reason why I'm going with a Mamo package. My old cam (Flowtech Streetsweeper HT) was on a 111lsa and was a bitch to tune. I'm sure it could have been dialed in better with more tune time but the car had cold start issues and bucking from ~1200-1600 RPM. I specifically wanted a cam on a 114lsa to help out with driveability. Combined with a killer head and intake tract I should end up with a car that has much better manners than my old setup and yet still rip your head off on the top end.
