JPR HVLD S2 flow #'s 2nd opinion and PCM info
03-24-2004, 09:41 AM
#101
Jpr Ewp Well, you can call me a sucker because I was ready to buy that JPR electric water pump- in fact, I have been trying to for about two years! Finally, JD told me he was not comfortable with it working in its current configuration. This suprised me because JPR had said he had several prototypes being run without any issues.
I still think the concept has promise- the concept of reverse-cooling the LS1, that is. It worked well in the LT1, and might have allowed us LS1 guys to run more compression and/or more timing. But I guess we will never know.
I still think the concept has promise- the concept of reverse-cooling the LS1, that is. It worked well in the LT1, and might have allowed us LS1 guys to run more compression and/or more timing. But I guess we will never know.
03-24-2004, 10:10 AM
#102
Brian waz up 
I agree with Brian,I NEVER saw anything strange (drugs) with Joe.He's like me alittle manic thats all
and IMO he got in over his head but THE GUY CAN PORT,I hope he can work things out,I really do.
Like I said even if were not the best of friends anymore I would lend my hand in anyway I could..
As far as the EWP,I believe Jay Fisher and Joe P had it working but things got touchy and after that I'm not really sure what went down.I agree there is promise to a reverse cooled pump.
Joe P has good ideas and isnt a dummy.
I think he needs to take a deep breath,Take his time and take on ONE or 2 cars at a time.Give that person his UNDIVIDABLE attention.I've seen some of the cars he has worked on and they are very thorough and others like Mike K's were um...
His biggest problem was getting himself under the bus or backed into a corner.Again IF I said anything to upset Joe P I am sorry too.I hope he can repair this mess and get back to racing,eating clams and wings and laughing like old times.
JS trying to stay sane one day at a time too
I agree with Brian,I NEVER saw anything strange (drugs) with Joe.He's like me alittle manic thats all
and IMO he got in over his head but THE GUY CAN PORT,I hope he can work things out,I really do.Like I said even if were not the best of friends anymore I would lend my hand in anyway I could..
As far as the EWP,I believe Jay Fisher and Joe P had it working but things got touchy and after that I'm not really sure what went down.I agree there is promise to a reverse cooled pump.
Joe P has good ideas and isnt a dummy.
I think he needs to take a deep breath,Take his time and take on ONE or 2 cars at a time.Give that person his UNDIVIDABLE attention.I've seen some of the cars he has worked on and they are very thorough and others like Mike K's were um...
His biggest problem was getting himself under the bus or backed into a corner.Again IF I said anything to upset Joe P I am sorry too.I hope he can repair this mess and get back to racing,eating clams and wings and laughing like old times.
JS trying to stay sane one day at a time too
Last edited by JS; 03-24-2004 at 11:02 AM.
03-24-2004, 10:35 AM
#103
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I dont want to upset Joe either he is a great guy that I enjoy talking too and I always had fun when we (mostly he) would work on my car. Unfortunatley being in the service industry I know how it feels to have people question your work, it hurts especially when you are passionate about it. I know he can port also which is why I will give him my heads if I need too and not think twice about it. I have also done things just to get through the day that have bit me in the *** later on so I know how it is.
03-24-2004, 11:30 AM
#105
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Thanks John, I realized I was being very overzealous in my defenses before and never acted like that before and don't want to get a bad reputation from that. I guess what really sent me off the deep end was the comments about my size, but that is in the past.
A phone call from JS before and his comments here made me realize how out of control things were getting and a lot of people were getting hurt monetarily and mentally and it is time to do what we all can to help everyone involved including Joe P himself.
Mike K, if it will help you out some if things are tight I can send you the $$ I was paid for the base tune I loaded for you at Joe's garage that day. I can look and see how much it was and I can send it to you via paypal or a check. It is just a small token, I know, but it is the best I can offer as that was my only involvement in your situation.
Bryan
A phone call from JS before and his comments here made me realize how out of control things were getting and a lot of people were getting hurt monetarily and mentally and it is time to do what we all can to help everyone involved including Joe P himself.
Mike K, if it will help you out some if things are tight I can send you the $$ I was paid for the base tune I loaded for you at Joe's garage that day. I can look and see how much it was and I can send it to you via paypal or a check. It is just a small token, I know, but it is the best I can offer as that was my only involvement in your situation.
Bryan
03-24-2004, 12:09 PM
#107
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Talking to Joe and rereading this post and how it developed into stupid accusations and forgetting how much JPR has done for me in the past has made me sick. I have no personal gain in any of this and will leave you with my view.
I will continue to use JPR as he has done more for me than any other person here and I still consider him a friend. I feel horrible that I let a stupid internet post get to me the way this did when Joe has always been there for me. As Joe told me its pretty much a mute point right now but I appreciate eveything he has done for me and is still willing to do for me if need be. I am taking a break from the board as alot of this has gotten out of control with BS and half truths leading to accusations of drug use somehow.
I will continue to use JPR as he has done more for me than any other person here and I still consider him a friend. I feel horrible that I let a stupid internet post get to me the way this did when Joe has always been there for me. As Joe told me its pretty much a mute point right now but I appreciate eveything he has done for me and is still willing to do for me if need be. I am taking a break from the board as alot of this has gotten out of control with BS and half truths leading to accusations of drug use somehow.
03-24-2004, 01:19 PM
#108
I agree w/9T9,I NEVER saw Joe do any drugs and we hung out almost every weekend so I cant let people say those kinds of things about his persona.I agree with Brian too,If I can help in anyway I'm here for Joe too,I know he's probably mad as hell with all the **** that went on with just him and I and we both said things we didnt really mean.I figured at least knowing I would support him threw a hard time might make him feel alittle better knowing he has a few people still wishing his well being.
I dont like hearing people going off the deep end and I dont wish that on my worst enemies.I try and get along with everybody.I agree with u 9T9 the net can sometimes create alot of BS and I feed and get into it myself,I've been no saint.
I'm gonna really take at look at my actions in the next couple of days and just do what makes me happy.If I run 13.50's or 7.80's it'll be because I want to and not to be in the click...
FWIW I think the post has been up long enough..
I'd lock it or just take it down John,but its your website...
I dont like hearing people going off the deep end and I dont wish that on my worst enemies.I try and get along with everybody.I agree with u 9T9 the net can sometimes create alot of BS and I feed and get into it myself,I've been no saint.
I'm gonna really take at look at my actions in the next couple of days and just do what makes me happy.If I run 13.50's or 7.80's it'll be because I want to and not to be in the click...
FWIW I think the post has been up long enough..
I'd lock it or just take it down John,but its your website...
03-24-2004, 01:19 PM
#109
Originally Posted by 9T9BlueTA
Talking to Joe and rereading this post and how it developed into stupid accusations and forgetting how much JPR has done for me in the past has made me sick. I have no personal gain in any of this and will leave you with my view.
I will continue to use JPR as he has done more for me than any other person here and I still consider him a friend. I feel horrible that I let a stupid internet post get to me the way this did when Joe has always been there for me. As Joe told me its pretty much a mute point right now but I appreciate eveything he has done for me and is still willing to do for me if need be. I am taking a break from the board as alot of this has gotten out of control with BS and half truths leading to accusations of drug use somehow.
I will continue to use JPR as he has done more for me than any other person here and I still consider him a friend. I feel horrible that I let a stupid internet post get to me the way this did when Joe has always been there for me. As Joe told me its pretty much a mute point right now but I appreciate eveything he has done for me and is still willing to do for me if need be. I am taking a break from the board as alot of this has gotten out of control with BS and half truths leading to accusations of drug use somehow.
Joe was involved to some degree with JS's deception on claiming to run a 216 cam when it was actually a 218/224, this helped give a better impression of the Joe's head work that was merited at the time.
Joe was involved in claiming ~25 rwhp gain for an EWP that has never materalized. The ~25rwhp claim was never backed up independantly.
Joe sold George C his personal engine that had very low oil pressure that was supposedly in good condition. JD ended up having to take care of the issue by rebuilding the motor. JD also took a beating cleaning up Joes mess.
Joe build an engine for EZSS that had issues. These were clearly document in video of the car smoking like a train going down the track. I think JD also took care of another mess of Joe's. Again JD took a beating reputation wise.
Joe ruined Mike K's engine with his "secret cam" & only I can install it BS. Joe mislead the tuner regarding the combo. Joe's heads didn't flow. Joe doesn't make good on the heads after a long wait by the customer.
Joe took Bravo's paid in full deposit for an engine and hasn't produced a motor as of yet and it's been seven months.
Joe makes serious claims for his HVLD 5.7 heads but to date there isn't an independent confirmation of this claimed flow numbers.
Joe has a well earned reputation for not getting the job done on time or being easy to get in contact with.
If you feel good about using JPR then you should no ones trying to change your mind about it. However, realize the facts speak to me at least in a way that discourages me from seeing JPR as being a creditable to do business with based on JPR own actions.
03-24-2004, 01:59 PM
#111
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Blackbird, I have to agree with all or most of those things you have said...
But, let me point out that most of those things are deficiencies in his business management abilities and poor choices in who did his machine work. I have seen his head work multiple times and when he mind is clear and he isn't trying to run a business he gets in a "zone" and makes great heads (I have verified them flowing myself with all the proper fixtures). This is why I hoped him working for JD's would be the turning point, but the damage had been done. At JD's he could have not had to answer phones, give price quotes, bolt parts together, etc.... all he would have to do is port heads and develop products. With all the bad things that happened the JPR orders dried up and did not carry over to JD's and the dream died. I know how frustrated Joe gets with the corners he gets himself into, he really doesn't want these things to happen and I know in the bottom of my heart he does not intend to screw anyone, or I would not defend him or even talk to him anymore as I would then be included in those that were "screwed" with my 383 LT1. I think poor choices were made and the damage was too big for the JPR name to be saved. I really do think he can turn it around, but it would have to be with someone else running the business, or him working for someone else. Heck, Agostino's made the same poor choices, just to higher $$$ amount and they are starting to gain respect again.
Also, guys are capable of reading what has been stated, I really don't see the need for your rehash with your plug in your signature for another shop (who I know does GREAT work as well). As a tuner you learn from customer feedback what heads make power and what ones don't.
I had enough faith in Joe P's porting abilities that I had a set made up for my 04 Silverado SS that had 3K miles on it at JD's with the JPR port work. With a cam with 210 durations the truck made 383HP at the wheels (yes that is STD, I can look up the SAE if you metric guys would like them) and 386 Ft/lbs of torque and the torque was over 389FT/lbs at the wheels from 3400 RPM where we got into it all the way thru 5500 RPM. I know the cam is legit as it idles at 625 RPM and sounds almost stock.
JD's used their machine shop and I saw the heads when they were completed before they were bolted on and they are awesome. The machine work cost a little more there, but it is right.
I think some of what hurt Joe P was that he was trying to do everything, keep costs low, make power, and quality had to be cut as you really can't do both in my opinion. Cheap is cheap, and fast is expensive. I'm not saying that is any customer's fault or that anyone is cheap, but am instead saying that Joe P was trying to do something that isn't possible to do right.
But, let me point out that most of those things are deficiencies in his business management abilities and poor choices in who did his machine work. I have seen his head work multiple times and when he mind is clear and he isn't trying to run a business he gets in a "zone" and makes great heads (I have verified them flowing myself with all the proper fixtures). This is why I hoped him working for JD's would be the turning point, but the damage had been done. At JD's he could have not had to answer phones, give price quotes, bolt parts together, etc.... all he would have to do is port heads and develop products. With all the bad things that happened the JPR orders dried up and did not carry over to JD's and the dream died. I know how frustrated Joe gets with the corners he gets himself into, he really doesn't want these things to happen and I know in the bottom of my heart he does not intend to screw anyone, or I would not defend him or even talk to him anymore as I would then be included in those that were "screwed" with my 383 LT1. I think poor choices were made and the damage was too big for the JPR name to be saved. I really do think he can turn it around, but it would have to be with someone else running the business, or him working for someone else. Heck, Agostino's made the same poor choices, just to higher $$$ amount and they are starting to gain respect again.
Also, guys are capable of reading what has been stated, I really don't see the need for your rehash with your plug in your signature for another shop (who I know does GREAT work as well). As a tuner you learn from customer feedback what heads make power and what ones don't.
I had enough faith in Joe P's porting abilities that I had a set made up for my 04 Silverado SS that had 3K miles on it at JD's with the JPR port work. With a cam with 210 durations the truck made 383HP at the wheels (yes that is STD, I can look up the SAE if you metric guys would like them) and 386 Ft/lbs of torque and the torque was over 389FT/lbs at the wheels from 3400 RPM where we got into it all the way thru 5500 RPM. I know the cam is legit as it idles at 625 RPM and sounds almost stock.
JD's used their machine shop and I saw the heads when they were completed before they were bolted on and they are awesome. The machine work cost a little more there, but it is right.
I think some of what hurt Joe P was that he was trying to do everything, keep costs low, make power, and quality had to be cut as you really can't do both in my opinion. Cheap is cheap, and fast is expensive. I'm not saying that is any customer's fault or that anyone is cheap, but am instead saying that Joe P was trying to do something that isn't possible to do right.
03-24-2004, 02:02 PM
#112
Originally Posted by JS
I cant let Joe take the hit on my cam..
It was MY IDEA,Leave him outta that one.....
I cheated and I told the truth...
It was MY IDEA,Leave him outta that one.....
I cheated and I told the truth...
I think 99 Blackbird T/A gives a pretty fair summary. My problems were less clear-cut, but JPR should take some of the blame.
1.) JPR S2 heads were found to have loose valve guides (all 8 intake), and 1 missing spring seat.
2.) Heads were never independently flow-tested, but a well-respected local porter felt the heads were overported. The swirl dam had been removed.
3.) My dyno numbers and track times have been consistently disappointing, except for the initial dyno of 422 RWHP at JD's. Dynos since: 392, 390, 407. What makes this quite puzzling is all the changes since then should have ADDED power, not taken it away: fresh shortblock, LS1 Edit dyno tuning, EWP, Yella Terras, new valvesprings, new lifters, and repair of the heads.
Joe (of course) accepts no responsibility and blames the ARE shortblock, or at least implies it is to blame. He has made NO OFFERS to help my situation.
4.) Joe still owes me, Jay Fisher, and others, I am sure, money. He claims he will pay me when he finishes 11Bravo's engine, but if Bravo has paid in full already what difference will that make?
03-24-2004, 02:09 PM
#113
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I hate to be pessimistic guys, but I don't think there is any money to go around and those that lost money...., unfortunatly lost money.....
It isn't right, but I don't know of any with the shape that Joe is in for him to ever satisfy you guys monetarily. It's a tough lump to swallow as I have had to do it too, but I was able to move on and I hope you guys will be able to as well and don't give up on this hobby. When I ran that 12.1 this past weekend in the big ole' Impala SS life was good It can be for you guys again too.
Later,
Bryan
It isn't right, but I don't know of any with the shape that Joe is in for him to ever satisfy you guys monetarily. It's a tough lump to swallow as I have had to do it too, but I was able to move on and I hope you guys will be able to as well and don't give up on this hobby. When I ran that 12.1 this past weekend in the big ole' Impala SS life was good
It can be for you guys again too.Later,
Bryan
03-24-2004, 02:11 PM
#114
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PCMFORLESS thanks for being much more civil this time around. If are really wanting to help me than we can work out something via pm's or emails regarding a refund for the tune. Thanks for the offer, now if only JPR would be so kind.
03-24-2004, 02:21 PM
#115
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JPR doesn't have the $$$, so I don't think that is EVER going to happen. Just a reality check, but I think you know it as well. I on the other hand do and can. I am not offering this as anything more than just help to get you get going again and enjoying this hobby (also I like your homer simpson Icon). I'm not doing it for Joe, myself, JD, .... but to help you.
I will say that your "friends" that came on this board for you, made things worse and that is why I never offered anything before. I am still honestly ticked at Vince, and you do have to admit that he went over the top as well as I. You can reach me via email at programmer@pcmforless.com and let me know how to send this to you. I will have to look at my ledger to see how much he had paid me for your baseline tune and I can send that to you right away.
Later,
Bryan
I will say that your "friends" that came on this board for you, made things worse and that is why I never offered anything before. I am still honestly ticked at Vince, and you do have to admit that he went over the top as well as I. You can reach me via email at programmer@pcmforless.com and let me know how to send this to you. I will have to look at my ledger to see how much he had paid me for your baseline tune and I can send that to you right away.
Later,
Bryan
03-24-2004, 02:23 PM
#116
Originally Posted by Mike K.
PCMFORLESS thanks for being much more civil this time around. If are really wanting to help me than we can work out something via pm's or emails regarding a refund for the tune. Thanks for the offer, now if only JPR would be so kind.
I agree, Mike, Bryan Herter is showing himself to be a standup guy.
Bryan, from your comments I take it Joe Prince is no longer working for JD's?
03-24-2004, 02:39 PM
#118
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When there are orders Joe does the porting at JD's. JD's local cusomers and a few of my customers have recently purchased heads and I know with JD looking over things the heads will be great. When there is no work he is not there.
They are still trying to make it work.
Byran
They are still trying to make it work.
Byran
