JPR HVLD S2 flow #'s 2nd opinion and PCM info
03-29-2004, 01:40 PM
#141
I said I was done with this, but I have to respond to PCMFORLESS comment about me going over the top. I did lose my cool and responded in a not so politically correct manner, BUT Brian if YOU remember correctly it was YOU that commented about my eating habits which opened the door FIRST. You thought it was funny to comment about Mike K. and I STARVING in JPR's garage. Brian it was YOU defending your friend JPR by bashing Mike K. and I. Once again YOU could have left off the comment about "I am still ticked with Vince!" and just accepted the fact YOU were wrong about US. I even apologized to YOU after YOU attacked my RACE and YOU are still TICKED with me. I do not know what else to do. I even offered to help YOU out myself with what I know about your situation and YOU are still TICKED with me. Brian just move on. YOU should not be wasting energy being TICKED with me. It benefits no one and it just shows that by YOU making that comment YOU still want to argue. If deep down inside YOU cant get over what I said in that post then once again I apologize. If YOU are ever in Florida please stop by and YOU can stay with me if YOU like for free. We can talk about this face to face while watching "Star Trek" or something.
03-29-2004, 02:02 PM
#143
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THe KS were active and running as when Joe P was at the dyno with the car (I was unable to be there) he noted 1-2 degrees of KR. Thus, yes they were active and pulling any necessary timing, thus I know even though that is not the timing I would have used knowing the specs now, that timing is not what did the damage. I didn't change any of the KR parameters in Mikes program as it was meant as just a baseline program.
Later,
Bryan
Later,
Bryan
03-29-2004, 02:08 PM
#145
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Vince, I'm not much of a Star Trek fan, but if I am back down in the Orlando area maybe we can head out for a few brews and I'm sure all will be good. I wasn't really trying to stir anything up, but instead was trying to let Mike know that all the extra guys from your area that commented (whether he wanted them to or not) just wan't really helping and is what made things escalade. It just became a big defensive struggle back and forth.
John, I think it's all good, and I don't see this going into a downward spiral
Later,
Bryan
John, I think it's all good, and I don't see this going into a downward spiral
Later,
Bryan
03-29-2004, 07:32 PM
#147
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One thing I'd like some light shed on is that I also know that my low octane table/low timing table was replaced and made the same as the high timing table ie 33 degrees, How can the PCM pull timing if the low table is the same as the high table? Also once knock is detected doesn't that mean that detonation has already occurred? If so that means that I detonated and then the PCM pulled timing and using this line of thought wouldn't that mean that on every run I did that I would have detonated at least once before the PCM pulled timing? And again how can the PCM pull timing of my low timing table is set to the same as my high timing table?
03-29-2004, 10:05 PM
#148
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Mike,
That's not how the low and high octane table are used. In order for the PCM to go into the low octane tables it takes multiple knock incidents for the PCM to migrate into the low octane table. The KR does listen for knock and then pull timing if it hears any event in a split second. Also I just looked at your program an until you were over 6400 RPM the peak timing was 31 degrees. It wasn't until over 6400 RPM that it went to 33 degrees. From 2200 RPM to 4400 RPM your timing peak was 25 degrees, from there till 6400 it was in the 29 to 31 degree neighborhood. The 33 up top was from a previous car or two of his I had done on the dyno that needed a little extra timing up at the very top to hold out the power curve.
Also, when you guys saw 1-2 degrees of KR on the dyno you should have notified me of this so I could pull some timing out of the program by you either sending the PCM up to me, or me sending a core PCM down to you. Bottom line is that I never got the opportunity to spend the time with that car that I needed due to scheduling issues. Heck, when I programmed it the car was still not together so I couldn't even do datalogging with it on the street. I did that program totally blind with bad information. If you are looking for someone to blame (seems like you are trying to shift the blame to me since you know Joe P has nothing) you are looking in the wrong direction
I hope this isn't going to fire this up into another finger pointing post as I'm really not in the mood, nor do I have the time for this anymore. Yes, I think you got hosed in this deal, but with my minimal involvement I don't know what I can do to help you out, other than to say what all the others are saying, "this sucks that you got hosed"
If I thought I was in any way a fault I would say so. Having programmed thousands of cars, I am not going to do something to put one in danger to cover for someone else. In this case JPR was my customer (not you) and I gave him the product he asked for.
Bryan
That's not how the low and high octane table are used. In order for the PCM to go into the low octane tables it takes multiple knock incidents for the PCM to migrate into the low octane table. The KR does listen for knock and then pull timing if it hears any event in a split second. Also I just looked at your program an until you were over 6400 RPM the peak timing was 31 degrees. It wasn't until over 6400 RPM that it went to 33 degrees. From 2200 RPM to 4400 RPM your timing peak was 25 degrees, from there till 6400 it was in the 29 to 31 degree neighborhood. The 33 up top was from a previous car or two of his I had done on the dyno that needed a little extra timing up at the very top to hold out the power curve.
Also, when you guys saw 1-2 degrees of KR on the dyno you should have notified me of this so I could pull some timing out of the program by you either sending the PCM up to me, or me sending a core PCM down to you. Bottom line is that I never got the opportunity to spend the time with that car that I needed due to scheduling issues. Heck, when I programmed it the car was still not together so I couldn't even do datalogging with it on the street. I did that program totally blind with bad information. If you are looking for someone to blame (seems like you are trying to shift the blame to me since you know Joe P has nothing) you are looking in the wrong direction
I hope this isn't going to fire this up into another finger pointing post as I'm really not in the mood, nor do I have the time for this anymore. Yes, I think you got hosed in this deal, but with my minimal involvement I don't know what I can do to help you out, other than to say what all the others are saying, "this sucks that you got hosed"
If I thought I was in any way a fault I would say so. Having programmed thousands of cars, I am not going to do something to put one in danger to cover for someone else. In this case JPR was my customer (not you) and I gave him the product he asked for.
Bryan
03-29-2004, 11:42 PM
#149
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Bryan dont take me the wrong way, I'm just being inquisitive. If everything you say about what JPR told you and what you discussed with JPR regarding my setup is true then I don't blame you for anything and would not feel as if you owed me anything. As far as me getting the shaft you are right there is really nothing else for us to say about it. The one person that really does owe me something and that I do blame JPR will not help which is the sad part of all this. FWIW if you really are being honest about trying to help me etc, Thanks. I am still skeptical which is probably why you read into my posts the way you are. Don't worry I'm getting over this whole ordeal and maybe one day I can be as trusting as I once was. I'll say this I'm damn sure looking forward to my next motor which I should have in a few weeks. Lets go 408ci woot !!!! Maybe one day if you do come down to Florida me you and Vince should get together and try to get to know one another . I can even show you my 3 broken pistons from my "JPR Adventure". Like I said if you are being honest thanks and don't read into my posts the wrong way,, my pcm questions were only because I was curious.
. I can even show you my 3 broken pistons from my "JPR Adventure". Like I said if you are being honest thanks and don't read into my posts the wrong way,, my pcm questions were only because I was curious.
03-30-2004, 09:56 AM
#150
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No problem. I guess I was just reading in the skeptical side and can understand it. I just wanted to make sure. I have no problems answering any of the questions you have on your programming at all, and have done so. Hopefully your new setup will work great and you will be soon enjoying your car again.
Later,
Bryan
Later,
Bryan
03-30-2004, 01:03 PM
#151
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Mike,
Thanks for posting the information. I was on vacation last week so I just read this now.
After sifting through yet another post where more disturbing information was revealed (and of course I was thrilled to hear that JP was apparently bad mouthing me behind my back...lovely), I find myself questioning every conversation I ever had with Joe P. He sure could talk a good game, and I really believed he had some good ideas, but it all sounds like Bullsh*t to me now. I do not think he is on drugs, but I do think hes got some mental/psychological issues that probably require therapy.
As PSJ put it, using your personal problems (continually I might add) as a reason for not coming through for your business is completely unacceptable. I personally worked through the death of my father to get a major project through at work that simply could not wait for me to sort everything out. Opportunity does not wait. I took a week off, got my sh*t together, and did what needed to be done. In the end, if you promise something, no one gives two craps about some song and dance you come up with on why it couldnt be done. Under dire circumstances, you can put things off a week, or two, whatever needs to be done, but to totally collapse under something not work/business related when people are counting on you? Im sorry, but get the h*ll out.
I got a good laugh out of the cant send emails because your harddrive is at the fbi -- you have got to be kidding me.
JS -- I was alarmed to read about the fake cam specs. I always thought you were a standup guy, this just blows my mind.
I ran my car last sunday at island dragway. Track seemed a little slow (most people in our group were at least .2/2 mph off from their fastestest times), but the car felt great, and at an estimated 3590 raceweight (full tank of gas) and my conservative shifting, I ran a best of 11.4 @ 121 (1.54 60' on et streets) before getting kicked out for no roll-bar. No smoke or anything, so I am pleased right now with this first effort, and happy with JD's repair work, although I start to wonder if my heads are any good after reading all this, and what my actual CR is.
Erik
Thanks for posting the information. I was on vacation last week so I just read this now.
After sifting through yet another post where more disturbing information was revealed (and of course I was thrilled to hear that JP was apparently bad mouthing me behind my back...lovely), I find myself questioning every conversation I ever had with Joe P. He sure could talk a good game, and I really believed he had some good ideas, but it all sounds like Bullsh*t to me now. I do not think he is on drugs, but I do think hes got some mental/psychological issues that probably require therapy.
As PSJ put it, using your personal problems (continually I might add) as a reason for not coming through for your business is completely unacceptable. I personally worked through the death of my father to get a major project through at work that simply could not wait for me to sort everything out. Opportunity does not wait. I took a week off, got my sh*t together, and did what needed to be done. In the end, if you promise something, no one gives two craps about some song and dance you come up with on why it couldnt be done. Under dire circumstances, you can put things off a week, or two, whatever needs to be done, but to totally collapse under something not work/business related when people are counting on you? Im sorry, but get the h*ll out.
I got a good laugh out of the cant send emails because your harddrive is at the fbi -- you have got to be kidding me.
JS -- I was alarmed to read about the fake cam specs. I always thought you were a standup guy, this just blows my mind.
I ran my car last sunday at island dragway. Track seemed a little slow (most people in our group were at least .2/2 mph off from their fastestest times), but the car felt great, and at an estimated 3590 raceweight (full tank of gas) and my conservative shifting, I ran a best of 11.4 @ 121 (1.54 60' on et streets) before getting kicked out for no roll-bar. No smoke or anything, so I am pleased right now with this first effort, and happy with JD's repair work, although I start to wonder if my heads are any good after reading all this, and what my actual CR is.
Erik
03-30-2004, 02:36 PM
#152
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When in doubt you can pump a motor to check compression.
When it comes to modifying cars, you deal with two unknowns...
-getting the parts
-getting them installed
I have zero tolerance for subpar ported heads.
When you do heads and cam, and say headers, you can pretty much blame the heads or valvetrain for low dyno numbers (generalization). Assuming a reasonable a/f, the cam and headers are probably what was advertised. After all, a cam is a cam. Cam manufacturers tend to high strong quality control.
I also have little tolerance for excuses. Sure stuff happens, but when someone complains over and over about stuff they are whining. Do something about it or stop complaining. I know some guys who wrench who complain about arthritis etc. When a guy I used to use complained nonstop for three hours I decided to never use him again he can take charge of things and make a change, major turnoff.
As far as JPR goes, I am underwhelmed with the quality of the work as reported by members. If I had an outstanding issue with him, ie. subpar heads, I would want a replacement set, and YES I would flow them before I used them.
When it comes to modifying cars, you deal with two unknowns...
-getting the parts
-getting them installed
I have zero tolerance for subpar ported heads.
When you do heads and cam, and say headers, you can pretty much blame the heads or valvetrain for low dyno numbers (generalization). Assuming a reasonable a/f, the cam and headers are probably what was advertised. After all, a cam is a cam. Cam manufacturers tend to high strong quality control.
I also have little tolerance for excuses. Sure stuff happens, but when someone complains over and over about stuff they are whining. Do something about it or stop complaining. I know some guys who wrench who complain about arthritis etc. When a guy I used to use complained nonstop for three hours I decided to never use him again he can take charge of things and make a change, major turnoff.
As far as JPR goes, I am underwhelmed with the quality of the work as reported by members. If I had an outstanding issue with him, ie. subpar heads, I would want a replacement set, and YES I would flow them before I used them.
03-30-2004, 02:53 PM
#153
EZ I did what I did,The cam in queston was worth maybe 5RW.
It was wrong and I shouldnt have done it but I admitted it,hat doesnt mean I'm not a standup guy.
I'd help anyone if they asked me.....
I cheated alitte but eventually got honest,I hope your not so blind as to think others havent done this too becaue they have bro,there just not letting u know about it
It was wrong and I shouldnt have done it but I admitted it,hat doesnt mean I'm not a standup guy.
I'd help anyone if they asked me.....
I cheated alitte but eventually got honest,I hope your not so blind as to think others havent done this too becaue they have bro,there just not letting u know about it
03-30-2004, 06:11 PM
#155
I just spoke with Joe today, and he seemed very willing to make things right on my heads. He aparrently has had trouble with the machine shop that did my heads, and he was very adamant about making it right. So.......hopefully this will all work out.
03-30-2004, 07:38 PM
#156
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EZ, glad to hear the car is running good at the track. I was there when JD stood over Joe P and flowed the heads and they are good. JD would not let somehting subpar go out.
I understand what you mean about working no matter what. When my father passed a year and a half ago (very sudden and unexpected) on a Sunday afternoon I drove 2.5 hours back to my home office from my mothers (I did get there in an hour and 20 minutes that Sunday when I got the call from the 911 center to get to my mothers' house because there was a problem with my father, what a freaking ride!) to get out 3 PCM's on Tuesday that I promised would go out and then drove 2.5 hours back that afternoon to make it back in time for his viewing and even got pulled over on the way back. I look for the same things in others I spend my money with. I don't like excuses when my $$ is on the line.
Fastbird, that machine shop was the cause of the fate of my 383 built by Joe. Those dumba$$es over bored 2 cylinders (2, not all 8!) and it ended up cracking a ring land. Hopefully you will get everything all taken care of.
Later guys,
Bryan
I understand what you mean about working no matter what. When my father passed a year and a half ago (very sudden and unexpected) on a Sunday afternoon I drove 2.5 hours back to my home office from my mothers (I did get there in an hour and 20 minutes that Sunday when I got the call from the 911 center to get to my mothers' house because there was a problem with my father, what a freaking ride!) to get out 3 PCM's on Tuesday that I promised would go out and then drove 2.5 hours back that afternoon to make it back in time for his viewing and even got pulled over on the way back. I look for the same things in others I spend my money with. I don't like excuses when my $$ is on the line.
Fastbird, that machine shop was the cause of the fate of my 383 built by Joe. Those dumba$$es over bored 2 cylinders (2, not all 8!) and it ended up cracking a ring land. Hopefully you will get everything all taken care of.
Later guys,
Bryan
03-30-2004, 09:48 PM
#158
Originally Posted by PCMFORLESS
Fastbird, that machine shop was the cause of the fate of my 383 built by Joe. Those dumba$$es over bored 2 cylinders (2, not all 8!) and it ended up cracking a ring land. Hopefully you will get everything all taken care of.
