AI's CNC 219 (241 castings) or PRC 2.5 ls6
12-16-2012, 01:19 PM
#21
You will not get unbiased opinions on this subject. It's like Coke or Pepsi...People seem to favor what they run on their set-up. The same guys over and over will favor AI or TSP respectively
Comparing what the heads look like visually is not a performance indicator.
OP, Compare your budget....CNC 241 heads do perform well, but CNC LS6 heads will make more power.
Price out what AI will charge you to port the 241s and see exactly what you get for the money. Phil will charge you for everything! $1,000 is just for CNC work and cleaning the valves. Don't forget to calculate the spring kit, guides etc as well. Once said and done, you will have superior 241s but it will have cost you MORE than PRC LS6 heads. Also consider shipping your cores to Phil will cost you $40 to $60 depending on where you are and turn-around time.
I feel it would be more convenient, more budget friendly, and better HP #s with TSP.
ET times and Dyno numbers can sway you either way depending what post you read...Nobody on this board is consistent with their builds. You see #s all over the place! So you really don't know for certain who makes more power...
Comparing what the heads look like visually is not a performance indicator.
OP, Compare your budget....CNC 241 heads do perform well, but CNC LS6 heads will make more power.
Price out what AI will charge you to port the 241s and see exactly what you get for the money. Phil will charge you for everything! $1,000 is just for CNC work and cleaning the valves. Don't forget to calculate the spring kit, guides etc as well. Once said and done, you will have superior 241s but it will have cost you MORE than PRC LS6 heads. Also consider shipping your cores to Phil will cost you $40 to $60 depending on where you are and turn-around time.
I feel it would be more convenient, more budget friendly, and better HP #s with TSP.
ET times and Dyno numbers can sway you either way depending what post you read...Nobody on this board is consistent with their builds. You see #s all over the place! So you really don't know for certain who makes more power...
12-16-2012, 10:06 PM
#22
You rarely need new guides on LS1 heads. The stock guides barely show wear even at 125k miles. Phil and I talked about that, and he said that he rarely ever has to replace those, so that's not a true cost.
The HCR option is down about 10HP to the AI 226cc 243 heads. How that compares to PRC, I don't know. But most Ai 226 heads add at least 50-55rwhp over stock LS1 heads. More depending on the cam and supporting mods. So, if that's 40-45rwhp over where you are now, that's a pretty decent gain. The system matched package is also a good option. Phil told me the HCR 219 and his 228 cam are good for about 90-100rwhp. I'd go with as much head as you can afford and as little cam as you could possibly want.
The HCR option is down about 10HP to the AI 226cc 243 heads. How that compares to PRC, I don't know. But most Ai 226 heads add at least 50-55rwhp over stock LS1 heads. More depending on the cam and supporting mods. So, if that's 40-45rwhp over where you are now, that's a pretty decent gain. The system matched package is also a good option. Phil told me the HCR 219 and his 228 cam are good for about 90-100rwhp. I'd go with as much head as you can afford and as little cam as you could possibly want.
12-16-2012, 10:34 PM
#23
You rarely need new guides on LS1 heads. The stock guides barely show wear even at 125k miles. Phil and I talked about that, and he said that he rarely ever has to replace those, so that's not a true cost.
The HCR option is down about 10HP to the AI 226cc 243 heads. How that compares to PRC, I don't know. But most Ai 226 heads add at least 50-55rwhp over stock LS1 heads. More depending on the cam and supporting mods. So, if that's 40-45rwhp over where you are now, that's a pretty decent gain. The system matched package is also a good option. Phil told me the HCR 219 and his 228 cam are good for about 90-100rwhp. I'd go with as much head as you can afford and as little cam as you could possibly want.
The HCR option is down about 10HP to the AI 226cc 243 heads. How that compares to PRC, I don't know. But most Ai 226 heads add at least 50-55rwhp over stock LS1 heads. More depending on the cam and supporting mods. So, if that's 40-45rwhp over where you are now, that's a pretty decent gain. The system matched package is also a good option. Phil told me the HCR 219 and his 228 cam are good for about 90-100rwhp. I'd go with as much head as you can afford and as little cam as you could possibly want.
12-16-2012, 11:10 PM
#24
oh my bad. I guess the shinny head does make the intake and exhaust ports look 100% better. All seriousness if u look at the port work u can see that the ai head is machine better then ur heads. the AI head looks almost like factory and everything is nice and smooth. The Dports look like d ports not like dports that someone went in and grinded on with a dremel. U can tell the AI heads someone spent the time and did beautiful work. Ur head look like someone was either hung over on a monday or in a hurry to leave on a friday.
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...t/viewall.html
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...top_ls7_heads/
You get the BEST when you purchase Precision Race Components cylinder heads. I don't just say this because I'm one of the owners. I say this because I've seen them truly tested by unbiased sources in front of the world to see.
Feel free to give us a call with any questions or concerns. We are always glad to help out in any way possible!
Trevor
Texas Speed & Performance
__________________
12-17-2012, 11:06 AM
#25
The PRC LS6's have ports that are ~230cc vs the smaller AI heads, so you will likely get alittle less hp/tq under the curve and possibly lazier throttle response, but peak numbers should be nearly identical.
I'd get the "high compression" 241 option which gets you welded up chambers for a smaller, very efficient chamber. I don't have any track times, but I lost to an 06 Mustang making 493rwhp (Mustang dyno) on race gas by only 1.5 car lengths and that was hitting the rev limiter in 3rd. A broad power curve is what you want, not necessarily peak numbers.
Jason
I'd get the "high compression" 241 option which gets you welded up chambers for a smaller, very efficient chamber. I don't have any track times, but I lost to an 06 Mustang making 493rwhp (Mustang dyno) on race gas by only 1.5 car lengths and that was hitting the rev limiter in 3rd. A broad power curve is what you want, not necessarily peak numbers.
Jason
I have a set of TSPs newer version and there is no sign of lazy throttle response and I'm making 350rwtq @ 3000-3500rpms. I'm a VERY satified TSP customer.
A ported LS6 head will make more power over a ported 241 head
12-17-2012, 11:08 AM
#26
Are you saying that the ports have been hand-finished??? If so, these heads are over 8 years old. This is even assuming that we did the hand porting. We offered hand porting in the very beginning, but we did not do very many of them. So many people at the time were so wrapped up in the "look" of the CNC port vs. and hand-smoothed port. We offered it for a very short time but quickly stopped because the added time was not worth it. Hand smoothing did not help flow whatsoever. So, stacking our eight-year-old used heads on new heads and asking people to compare them based on what they see is a bit unfair, don't you think? Things have progressed a lot in the last eight years! Also, do you really think customers would continue to purchase heads from us if they gained 6 RWHP over stock? We have had many different sets of our PRC heads run in magazine shootouts against ALL of the competitors. The last test was in Hot Rod Magazine with our 237's against Trick Flow, AFR, Dart, All Pro, Mast, etc. We've been doing this a long time, and we also have the facility, machinery, and staff to back it up. I encourage everyone to see the facility that produces their products! Ask about the processes. Ask about their QC. We don't use any used castings PERIOD. We also do more than port cylinder heads. We also develop new ones. PRC offers a full line of aftermarket castings, and we have the top cylinder head porters in the nation developing ports for us. I can assure you that we will put our product up against anyone else's product in the industry! With that said, we already have. We trust our products enough to send them in for such things as a magazine shootout. We are confident in knowing that our heads will always be in the top performers of the test, and they have been every time. Don't take my word for it. Check the articles out for yourself! It's much easier to compare generalities with zero technical data online than it is to see real testing with real data.
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...t/viewall.html
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...top_ls7_heads/
You get the BEST when you purchase Precision Race Components cylinder heads. I don't just say this because I'm one of the owners. I say this because I've seen them truly tested by unbiased sources in front of the world to see.
Feel free to give us a call with any questions or concerns. We are always glad to help out in any way possible!
Trevor
Texas Speed & Performance
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...t/viewall.html
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...top_ls7_heads/
You get the BEST when you purchase Precision Race Components cylinder heads. I don't just say this because I'm one of the owners. I say this because I've seen them truly tested by unbiased sources in front of the world to see.
Feel free to give us a call with any questions or concerns. We are always glad to help out in any way possible!
Trevor
Texas Speed & Performance
12-17-2012, 11:12 AM
#28
No Im not sayin they were hand finished. Im sayin the port work is **** compared to the ai heads. I could have done a better job with a dremel. The heads I have pictured on the top are urs and thier less then 3 years old. If u look in the pic u will see ur name is on the bottom of the head which is the way u do ur new heads. I used to use ur stuff all the time and I still use ur cams. Ur cam selection is great and one of the best. But as for ur head work I beg the differ. Ive had better luck running wcch or the ai heads over urs. Thos pics of the heads I post are urs and came straight from u guys. Out of the last 3 heads those heads there ran the worst and the cnc work was shitty. I called u guys and u did tell me to try a few things to see if that was the problem and none of them helped. JonR was who I was talking to at first and I can honestly say he took the time to try and help. I really dont care what magazine articles says because sometimes being thier getting free stuff from a vendor they will talk the parts up.
TSP heads are PROVEN!!
IMO, I'd go either AI or TSP, they make similar power, with the only difference being, TSP answers the phone when you call them and you don't have to communicate via email.
Last edited by 427LS7HCI; 12-17-2012 at 11:20 AM.
12-17-2012, 01:14 PM
#29
On The Tree
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I got some AI ported 5.3s on their way. I will post everything once they come. Going to be a whole new setup, cam, heads, bar lifters, everything I think I need. Trying to hit 7k safely so I can stretch out 3rd gear a bit longer. Still trying to decide on intake though.
12-17-2012, 01:38 PM
#30
I've seen prc as casts.. ls6 2.5's.. and AI's hc heads fresh. They are all quality products.
If craftmanship is the issue, that should be regarded as irrelevant.TSP has had some quality control issues in the past, just like every business, but the quality of the workmanship should never ever be brought into question.
If they were '****' heads, which i highly doubt, they wouldn't be setting records, ..or be in business.
If craftmanship is the issue, that should be regarded as irrelevant.TSP has had some quality control issues in the past, just like every business, but the quality of the workmanship should never ever be brought into question.
If they were '****' heads, which i highly doubt, they wouldn't be setting records, ..or be in business.
12-17-2012, 01:48 PM
#31
Back in '07 I had a set of TSP's older LS6 heads with the 237cc ports and a MS3 114LSA/FAST 90/90 and I got pulled by 3/4 (my front bumper was at his back wheel) car to 160mph by a AFR 205 (milled to 58cc)/G5X3/FAST 90/90 (480+rwhp) combo'd car. I had a C5 Coupe and he had C5 Z06.
TSP heads are PROVEN!!
IMO, I'd go either AI or TSP, they make similar power, with the only difference being, TSP answers the phone when you call them and you don't have to communicate via email.
TSP heads are PROVEN!!
IMO, I'd go either AI or TSP, they make similar power, with the only difference being, TSP answers the phone when you call them and you don't have to communicate via email.
I wasn't going to say it...but yes customer service counts. Phil was an A-hole when I contacted them.
We know LSXHawks loyalty is with AI, but once again..you can't compare heads visually!! How they perform is where it counts!!
When I got my TSP heads, they looked new! You can't pull 10 year old heads off your car and compare them to new AI heads and say "look how dirty these heads are"
Stick to the facts...Cost, value, performance, customer service.
You can't go wrong with either...TSP will save you a few $$.
12-17-2012, 01:52 PM
#32
I'm about to pull the trigger on a set of heads and cam. The TSP's will be matched with their 228r cam on 113 LSA. Advance Induction recommends their 226/230 - 600/600 on 114 LSA. What do you guys think? Anyone running either combo or have something similar? This is a 17k mile bolt-on camaro (ie...kooks, borla, yank ss3600 ,342 gears, etc)
The off the shelf cams from tsp have been proven to work with their heads, but you will be leaving a little on the table.. Ofcourse that depends on the goals you have set for your car. The 2.5 5.3 heads and 228r is a great combo, i love the mid range on that setup. Futral, Tick, and Vengeance also make good off the shelf cams aswell.
12-17-2012, 01:57 PM
#33
I've seen prc as casts.. ls6 2.5's.. and AI's hc heads fresh. They are all quality products.
If craftmanship is the issue, that should be regarded as irrelevant.TSP has had some quality control issues in the past, just like every business, but the quality of the workmanship should never ever be brought into question.
If they were '****' heads, which i highly doubt, they wouldn't be setting records, ..or be in business.
If craftmanship is the issue, that should be regarded as irrelevant.TSP has had some quality control issues in the past, just like every business, but the quality of the workmanship should never ever be brought into question.
If they were '****' heads, which i highly doubt, they wouldn't be setting records, ..or be in business.
12-17-2012, 02:07 PM
#34
Regardless, the pics posted are worthless. If they're three years old, it is the later port design. If you're only seeing 6 RWHP from a set of ported heads over stock, there is definitely something wrong somewhere. What that thing is we will never know. As for the CNC work, are you referring to the step-over of the tool path? We have sold literally thousands of PRC LS6 heads in this time frame. You're the only one that has told us of this problem. Our cylinder heads are proven. As for the magazines, they get cylinder heads from everyone! It's hard to say they will provide skewed results when they get parts from everyone in the test.
I am glad that you're happy with our camshafts, and we definitely appreciate your business! However, it's hard to help with a problem over the phone when all we get is "your heads are crap". Our machining and build processes are setup to prevent such issues of having inconsistent cylinder heads. Again, I agree that there's something going wrong when you gain 6 RWHP from a set of ported heads over stock GM heads. Nobody will deny that. To say that it was a problem from bad cylinder heads when they are the same exact cylinder heads that have been used over and over again by so many customers on this site is a bit of a stretch. Since you still have the cylinder heads, would you mind sending them back to us for inspection? I would be more than happy to have Jason personally inspect your cylinder heads. I certainly do NOT want anyone to be unhappy with our products, and we would not have any problem inspecting the cylinder heads and seeing if there is anything that we can find that would cause such an issue.
I am glad that you're happy with our camshafts, and we definitely appreciate your business! However, it's hard to help with a problem over the phone when all we get is "your heads are crap". Our machining and build processes are setup to prevent such issues of having inconsistent cylinder heads. Again, I agree that there's something going wrong when you gain 6 RWHP from a set of ported heads over stock GM heads. Nobody will deny that. To say that it was a problem from bad cylinder heads when they are the same exact cylinder heads that have been used over and over again by so many customers on this site is a bit of a stretch. Since you still have the cylinder heads, would you mind sending them back to us for inspection? I would be more than happy to have Jason personally inspect your cylinder heads. I certainly do NOT want anyone to be unhappy with our products, and we would not have any problem inspecting the cylinder heads and seeing if there is anything that we can find that would cause such an issue.
__________________
12-17-2012, 02:27 PM
#35
Go back and look at the pics I posted of those heads from tsp and AI. Besides the heads not performing like they should have my beef was also with the cnc work. If u look at the intake and exhaust ports u will see the d ports on the ai look like d ports and the intake ports are cnc but still look like the factory design. the prc heads dports dont look like dports and the intake side looks nothing like the factory design. To me the ai heads are more detailed when it comes to their cnc program. To me that shows they took the time to get as much out of the heads as possible. I really feel the ai heads are the best being there heads with smaller valves they will out perform at the track and out perform on the flow bench The PRC cnc head.
I also want to be 100% clear that I completely respect AI and their products. Competition is excellent for the consumer because all of you get better products and better pricing!
__________________
12-17-2012, 04:15 PM
#36
Go back and look at the pics I posted of those heads from tsp and AI. Besides the heads not performing like they should have my beef was also with the cnc work. If u look at the intake and exhaust ports u will see the d ports on the ai look like d ports and the intake ports are cnc but still look like the factory design. the prc heads dports dont look like dports and the intake side looks nothing like the factory design. To me the ai heads are more detailed when it comes to their cnc program. To me that shows they took the time to get as much out of the heads as possible. I really feel the ai heads are the best being there heads with smaller valves they will out perform at the track and out perform on the flow bench The PRC cnc head.
AI makes great ported heads, but it doesnt make them a superior product in 100% of head/cam swaps. Personally I would put them at the top of the mail in cnc porting, but TSP, for the price off the shelf, just can't be beat for what it is.
Btw, You gained 5hp? I know 3 people who gained 40+, 25+ and 30+ on heads and cam swaps from tsp.
12-17-2012, 06:58 PM
#37
11 Second Club
FWIW, I was a little disappointed in my dyno numbers after installing the PRC 2.5 5.3s, along with their t2 cam and an unported FAST 90 (426/389 hp/tq). My motor had over 140k miles when the parts were installed, so it's possible that could've affected the numbers. What I wasn't disappointed in was the times it ran at the track (times are in my sig.). My car is a full weight, m6 SS with a 12 bolt, housing 4.11 gears.
The problem is, you spend time on these forums, and you see cars making so much more hp, but never seem to run what they should. I race my car...often. When I make changes, I know which ones work. This budget combo works for me. Yes, it is possible I could probably go faster with one of the other combos...but at what cost? Is 15 hp worth another 1k dollars? For me...no.
The problem is, you spend time on these forums, and you see cars making so much more hp, but never seem to run what they should. I race my car...often. When I make changes, I know which ones work. This budget combo works for me. Yes, it is possible I could probably go faster with one of the other combos...but at what cost? Is 15 hp worth another 1k dollars? For me...no.
Last edited by big dave; 12-18-2012 at 01:13 AM.
12-17-2012, 08:03 PM
#38
FWIW, I was a little disappointed in my dyno numbers after installing the PRC 2.5 5.3s, along with their t2 cam and an unported FAST 90 (426/389 hp/tq). My motor had over 140k miles when the parts were installed, so it's possible that could've affected the numbers. What I wasn't disappointed in was the times it ran at the track (times are in my sig.). My car is a full weight SS with a 12 bolt, housing 4.11 gears.
The problem is, you spend time on these forums, and you see cars making so much more hp, but never seem to run what they should. I race my car...often. When I make changes, I know which ones work. This budget combo works for me. Yes, it is possible I could probably go faster with one of the other combos...but at what cost? Is 15 hp worth another 1k dollars? For me...no.
The problem is, you spend time on these forums, and you see cars making so much more hp, but never seem to run what they should. I race my car...often. When I make changes, I know which ones work. This budget combo works for me. Yes, it is possible I could probably go faster with one of the other combos...but at what cost? Is 15 hp worth another 1k dollars? For me...no.
Dave are you serious?? 426 horsepower to the rear tires with ported 5.3 heads is nothing to be disappointed about. That's a lot of Hp out of a 346 ci with "small" heads! I hear you though....the proof is in the MPH at the track. Dyno #s are all over and people do inflate. I have LS6 heads and I will be happy with 426hp! Better than the stock 315 RWHP.
