Need help on LQ9 build for a dragster
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Need help on LQ9 build for a dragster I am newbie to the LS world, so bare with me. I just bought a rear engine dragster and want to build LS for it. I have some basics I know that I want to use, but need others to help me fill in the blanks to achieve my goals. I am look at getting 700rwhp, naturally aspirated on alcohol. I have a stock LQ9, i was looking at a Rons Terminator alcohol injection system, MSD igniton, hooked up to a powerglide. That is as far as I have gotten
I am sure forged rods and pistons are a must, I believe the heads are 317's, the car weights about 1300lbs without motor/trans.
this doesn't have to be a really low budget build, but I want this combo for next season and then after that when money allows I want to twin turbo the LQ9 for something different in a dragster. Especially here in Alaska.
I am sure forged rods and pistons are a must, I believe the heads are 317's, the car weights about 1300lbs without motor/trans.
this doesn't have to be a really low budget build, but I want this combo for next season and then after that when money allows I want to twin turbo the LQ9 for something different in a dragster. Especially here in Alaska.
Last edited by akblaz; Aug 21, 2012 at 09:48 PM. Reason: better description
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High compression stroker (402-408) by running a 4" crank, ls3/7 style heads worked over with a great intake and proper cam and I see no problem going it.
What's your budget? Look at All Pro and mast Motez head/ intake options too...you will pay a lot for them, but are worth it if you can swing it
What's your budget? Look at All Pro and mast Motez head/ intake options too...you will pay a lot for them, but are worth it if you can swing it
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Has anyone done any work to the 317 heads to get them to flow better? I was able to get a cam spec'd out .623/.623 @.006, .006 duration lobe sep 112. I was narrowing it down to 12:1 on the compression, trying to use the stock crank, and rods with new pistons to get the 12:1 compression ratio. Am I still on the right track?
You will never get 700rwhp out of a 364, let alone any cubic inch ls motor with 317's. If this is going in a dragster here's what I'd do.
If you're staying N/A put a 4" stroke crank in it, hard block it and bore it out to 4.065 and make a 415.
A set of All Pro Hurricane's or TFS 245's, a real camshaft(solid roller) not a .623 inch lift deal, and some real compression out of it(14.0:1) an aftermarket cast intake manifold like an All-Pro 4500 single plane or a Holley/Edelbrock tunnel ram EFI intake to go with it and you'll make 600rwhp.
We had a 415 with PRC small bore LS3 heads with 12.5-13.0:1 compression and a GMPP 4150 single plane on it and a hydraulic roller(what I consider a medium sized hydraulic) made 573rwhp through a glide with a nitrous stall.
This is a unloaded Dyno Jet 224XLC the pulls were made on. Same car also with a 82 nitrous jet(rated 225-250hp) made 853rwhp at 6900-7000rpm. Car races in the local RS275 series races and has been low 5.50's@130mph at 3270-3300lbs on 275/60 drag radials.
If you're staying N/A put a 4" stroke crank in it, hard block it and bore it out to 4.065 and make a 415.
A set of All Pro Hurricane's or TFS 245's, a real camshaft(solid roller) not a .623 inch lift deal, and some real compression out of it(14.0:1) an aftermarket cast intake manifold like an All-Pro 4500 single plane or a Holley/Edelbrock tunnel ram EFI intake to go with it and you'll make 600rwhp.
We had a 415 with PRC small bore LS3 heads with 12.5-13.0:1 compression and a GMPP 4150 single plane on it and a hydraulic roller(what I consider a medium sized hydraulic) made 573rwhp through a glide with a nitrous stall.
This is a unloaded Dyno Jet 224XLC the pulls were made on. Same car also with a 82 nitrous jet(rated 225-250hp) made 853rwhp at 6900-7000rpm. Car races in the local RS275 series races and has been low 5.50's@130mph at 3270-3300lbs on 275/60 drag radials.
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Teching In
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Bs!! [QUOTE=Martin@Tick;16716031]You will never get 700rwhp out of a 364, let alone any cubic inch ls motor with 317's.
I guess we should all go back to building 377s then. Seemed pretty easy to get 750 hp from them with compression, rpms, and alcohol.
I guess we should all go back to building 377s then. Seemed pretty easy to get 750 hp from them with compression, rpms, and alcohol.
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Verdad Gallardo [QUOTE=beecj0;16717916] At the rear wheels?
Good luck with that, at the flywheel it's not a problem, but it ain't happening at the rear wheels especially with through an unlocked stall converter.
Good luck with that, at the flywheel it's not a problem, but it ain't happening at the rear wheels especially with through an unlocked stall converter.
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With all this being said....what do you feel the numbers will be with a LQ9, ported 317 heads, 251/259 duration @.050 .623/.623 112 lobe separation 110 centerline, I have not bought pistons yet so compression can be adjusted, redline around 7500 but thats adjustable. The cam is just spec'd out, but can be altered. What are the benefits of going solid roller? I am trying to get the car on the track for next year, and as the budget allows, then heads, stroker crank and turbos will come. Ron's toliet 1435cfm injection because I can only run mechanical injection in the class I run in. I have not bought the intake yet. Its drag racing so I want to go as fast as I can, but I have to recover from the purchase of the car. The cam that Comp spec'd has the stall at 4900rpm. I have a line on a Glide 1.80 straight cut. I would love to go all out eventually so I appreciate the words of wisdom. I am going into uncharted territory for some of the people here in Alaska...most of the vets at he track are telling me to go BBC and forget it. There are a few though that see the potential of the LS
With all this being said....what do you feel the numbers will be with a LQ9, ported 317 heads, 251/259 duration @.050 .623/.623 112 lobe separation 110 centerline, I have not bought pistons yet so compression can be adjusted, redline around 7500 but thats adjustable. The cam is just spec'd out, but can be altered. What are the benefits of going solid roller? I am trying to get the car on the track for next year, and as the budget allows, then heads, stroker crank and turbos will come. Ron's toliet 1435cfm injection because I can only run mechanical injection in the class I run in. I have not bought the intake yet. Its drag racing so I want to go as fast as I can, but I have to recover from the purchase of the car. The cam that Comp spec'd has the stall at 4900rpm. I have a line on a Glide 1.80 straight cut. I would love to go all out eventually so I appreciate the words of wisdom. I am going into uncharted territory for some of the people here in Alaska...most of the vets at he track are telling me to go BBC and forget it. There are a few though that see the potential of the LS
With the hydraulic roller you don't want to go over 7500rpm honestly or you will most likely run into valve float issues. I'd like to see you use a set of the BTR Max Pressure springs we sell if you decide to stay hydraulic.
The benefits of a solid roller in your case for a dragster in a race only application are more rpm, better valve-train stability at high rpm and more power.
I would be looking for a stall that flashes at least 5400-5600rpm maybe even more to get the most out of that camshaft.
For example my old N/A stall converter flashed 6000rpm with a 239/247 110+0 camshaft being used in a 346 cubic inch application and ran it's best with that stall speed. For the camshaft you are using and the application I'd want something very close to that same stall speed.
Flash is what the converter does when the trans brake is released and the lock up(coupling point of the converter) is met and the converter locks up and grabs the motor, basically where the converter begins to become efficient enough to become the fluid coupling that it is.
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lets help him go fast! A 346 cubic inch application will require a higher stall. What heads did you have? same, or bigger? I say it IS possible with those heads to get 750 at the crank. 750 to the wheels will be hard, and take some time but possible. 14 to 1, alcohol injection, full port job, the right cam, and a good efficient power glide, it would be close.
You obviously have a lot of experience, and know more than i do about LSs. I'm just trying to get a good answer for akblaz, and other forum readers. Too often its do it like I do or, that will never work! How about , this is what i have done, or if thats your goal this is what would help you get there.
You obviously have a lot of experience, and know more than i do about LSs. I'm just trying to get a good answer for akblaz, and other forum readers. Too often its do it like I do or, that will never work! How about , this is what i have done, or if thats your goal this is what would help you get there.
A 346 cubic inch application will require a higher stall. What heads did you have? same, or bigger? I say it IS possible with those heads to get 750 at the crank. 750 to the wheels will be hard, and take some time but possible. 14 to 1, alcohol injection, full port job, the right cam, and a good efficient power glide, it would be close.
You obviously have a lot of experience, and know more than i do about LSs. I'm just trying to get a good answer for akblaz, and other forum readers. Too often its do it like I do or, that will never work! How about , this is what i have done, or if thats your goal this is what would help you get there.
You obviously have a lot of experience, and know more than i do about LSs. I'm just trying to get a good answer for akblaz, and other forum readers. Too often its do it like I do or, that will never work! How about , this is what i have done, or if thats your goal this is what would help you get there.
Two different engines in the same car, with the same power band, but different cubic inches will require the same stall speed. If a smaller engine makes peak torque at 5500rpm and a larger engines makes peak torque at 5500 rpm they both need the same stall speed. Cam timing, cylinder heads and intake will determine stall speed along with weight and rear gear. You want the stall to flash to peak torque.
I also have to kindly disagree with being able to make anywhere near 700rwhp let alone 600rwhp with 317 heads on a 364.
Maybe 550rwhp but that is a stretch. There is only so much you can do with a head like that N/A. To make big power N/A you need port velocity along with a large cross sectional area, larger bore size and proper cam timing.
I've laid out what it would take to make big power thru an unlocked stall converter. Take it as "you have to do it this way" or take it as fact, either way it's what I've seen and experienced through my time dealing with these applications.
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update So I have the block now, it is a 4.030 bore, all the machine work is complete. Got a set of L92 heads that need to be gone through, casting 5364's. Now it is time to think about making sure I pick the right cam, and which rockers to go with? I am going to go with a solid cam since I am going to spin it over 7K. Going to get it set up for 14:1 on alcohol still. Who else should I call about the cam? I am going to give Martin at Tick a call, but I want to look at my opinions on which direction to go.
Last edited by akblaz; Jun 22, 2013 at 05:13 PM.
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You should do some trolling over on yellowbullet....a lot of those guys are making absolutely sick power on extreme motors....I've seen some ls/lq based engines running .800"+ lift cams spinning 10,000+ rpms. Martin and his guys are great and know a lot about how to make great power.
Now that is a set of heads you can make 700hp at the crank with! I would go with a set of T&D rockers, but I will say that you're going to spend an astronomical amount of money on a set of springs with a small enough diameter to fit in the stock spring pocket that can handle the kind of cam that this thing needs.
One of the problems I ran into on my own build involved just this. I could not run a solid roller because I couldn't afford the spring kit that it would of taken to do what I wanted cam wise with a solid roller using a LS3/L92/LSA head. This is because of the spring pocket not being large enough to accommodate the spring I really needed. On top of that, the spring pocket cannot be machined large enough without going through to the intake runner. It would of involved a PAC spring that is the same diameter as pretty much every other aftermarket dual spring that is used in LS cylinder heads, but the spring would of been able to handle .800" valve lift and it would have generated 275 pounds of seat pressure and 750 over the nose. IIRC that spring kit was well over 750 dollars.
When it comes to solid rollers you need a larger diameter spring to generate the seat and open pressures needed to control the lobe profiles a solid roller will have. Now, that said I have 2 customers using the PRC .675 EHT springs successfully with solid rollers. They have them shimmed within .045"-.050" of coil bind which generates 195-200lbs. on the seat. With the right lobe profile it's proven itself to work at 7700rpm so far with solid stem stainless steel intake and exhaust valves. You are limited to .640"-.650" valve lift going that route though.
One of the problems I ran into on my own build involved just this. I could not run a solid roller because I couldn't afford the spring kit that it would of taken to do what I wanted cam wise with a solid roller using a LS3/L92/LSA head. This is because of the spring pocket not being large enough to accommodate the spring I really needed. On top of that, the spring pocket cannot be machined large enough without going through to the intake runner. It would of involved a PAC spring that is the same diameter as pretty much every other aftermarket dual spring that is used in LS cylinder heads, but the spring would of been able to handle .800" valve lift and it would have generated 275 pounds of seat pressure and 750 over the nose. IIRC that spring kit was well over 750 dollars.
When it comes to solid rollers you need a larger diameter spring to generate the seat and open pressures needed to control the lobe profiles a solid roller will have. Now, that said I have 2 customers using the PRC .675 EHT springs successfully with solid rollers. They have them shimmed within .045"-.050" of coil bind which generates 195-200lbs. on the seat. With the right lobe profile it's proven itself to work at 7700rpm so far with solid stem stainless steel intake and exhaust valves. You are limited to .640"-.650" valve lift going that route though.
Last edited by Sales@Tick; Jun 25, 2013 at 09:02 AM.
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Martin, does anyone make a longer valve that could be used to raise the spring seat up high enough (think tappered spacer) that way you could raise your spring seat instead of cutting down in the head to make room for a larger seat?
Just throwing the thought out there, I don't know if anyone makes anything like this, price ot if it would even work.
Just throwing the thought out there, I don't know if anyone makes anything like this, price ot if it would even work.
