Flat Plane Crank LS1 Build
09-02-2012, 10:39 AM
#21
Martin, do you have a link to T and D? I will be running up to 7200 rpms and would like the added security. Jesel is a bit.....pricey, but where it matters, sometimes, you have to cough it up.
MR2. I remember that kit car now. I like it a lot. I think it has better lines that the Factory Five GTM. But not quite as safe or secure at the GTM, unless you make sure they add the full race cage. Which is completely worth it. I saw the video on the SLC a while back and info about the owner, and then one on a build up in some TV show. Very nice car. You keep mentioning fitting necessary parts into your budget.. This worries me
It seems contrary to spending thousands extra on a flat crank and all the extra wiring and design for a cam just to have the sound you want. Doesn't seem like cutting corners would come up after a statement like that.
Have you ever done a project like this? Estimate a budget and time frame. Add about 50% to that. Then reality will be double both those. Just how its works for everyone, every time. (if you didn't know already and haven't built a car from the ground up.. a full motor build is not comparable as far as patience and commitment are concerned. Its exhaustive. Literally)
Im still shocked the crank is that cheap. Pioneer the way, and I might follow on a larger bore motor.
Thanks mark! They are huge projects that take forever, as you are clearly aware at this point. Good luck and have fun with it.
MR2. I remember that kit car now. I like it a lot. I think it has better lines that the Factory Five GTM. But not quite as safe or secure at the GTM, unless you make sure they add the full race cage. Which is completely worth it. I saw the video on the SLC a while back and info about the owner, and then one on a build up in some TV show. Very nice car. You keep mentioning fitting necessary parts into your budget.. This worries me
It seems contrary to spending thousands extra on a flat crank and all the extra wiring and design for a cam just to have the sound you want. Doesn't seem like cutting corners would come up after a statement like that.Have you ever done a project like this? Estimate a budget and time frame. Add about 50% to that. Then reality will be double both those. Just how its works for everyone, every time. (if you didn't know already and haven't built a car from the ground up.. a full motor build is not comparable as far as patience and commitment are concerned. Its exhaustive. Literally)
Im still shocked the crank is that cheap. Pioneer the way, and I might follow on a larger bore motor.
Thanks mark! They are huge projects that take forever, as you are clearly aware at this point. Good luck and have fun with it.
Last edited by 95ONE; 09-02-2012 at 04:13 PM.
09-02-2012, 04:20 PM
#25
Motor to buy and rebuild stock is around $3-5k. That crank alone is $2,500.. Additionally, Rods, and Pistons HAVE to be bought for that crank. Custom Cam..
Plan on a minimum of $10K when cutting all sorts of corners. - Then there's no point in the motor. The fuel system alone is probably going to be $1K on a budget build.
Intake manifold? Rockers to handle the RPM? Stock heads?
High RPM needs higher compression.. Plans? A TON more is needed if you want to put together a decently working flat plane motor.
I know you probably plan on trying to use everything off a totaled Corvette. Sadly, it just doesn't always work out that way.
Really!? What did you pay for that?
Plan on a minimum of $10K when cutting all sorts of corners. - Then there's no point in the motor. The fuel system alone is probably going to be $1K on a budget build.
Intake manifold? Rockers to handle the RPM? Stock heads?
High RPM needs higher compression.. Plans? A TON more is needed if you want to put together a decently working flat plane motor.
I know you probably plan on trying to use everything off a totaled Corvette. Sadly, it just doesn't always work out that way.
Really!? What did you pay for that?
Last edited by 95ONE; 09-02-2012 at 04:30 PM.
09-02-2012, 08:25 PM
#26
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Motor to buy and rebuild stock is around $3-5k. That crank alone is $2,500.. Additionally, Rods, and Pistons HAVE to be bought for that crank. Custom Cam..
Plan on a minimum of $10K when cutting all sorts of corners. - Then there's no point in the motor. The fuel system alone is probably going to be $1K on a budget build.
Intake manifold? Rockers to handle the RPM? Stock heads?
High RPM needs higher compression.. Plans? A TON more is needed if you want to put together a decently working flat plane motor.
I know you probably plan on trying to use everything off a totaled Corvette. Sadly, it just doesn't always work out that way.
Really!? What did you pay for that?
Plan on a minimum of $10K when cutting all sorts of corners. - Then there's no point in the motor. The fuel system alone is probably going to be $1K on a budget build.
Intake manifold? Rockers to handle the RPM? Stock heads?
High RPM needs higher compression.. Plans? A TON more is needed if you want to put together a decently working flat plane motor.
I know you probably plan on trying to use everything off a totaled Corvette. Sadly, it just doesn't always work out that way.
Really!? What did you pay for that?
The 10K I think is realistic and does not include the donnor engine from a GTO. When looking at the spread sheet their are only two items that jump out from me as being less or more and that is the rocker system for higher revs, basically the Jesel vs a more standard comp ultra and if I want to use the Eagle H beam con rod or custom Carillo or Crower. I know Carillo seem to be the best so if thoese are the only real differences then I might just get the Carillo and Jesl and call it a day.
total higher, rev to 9000+ $9,790
crankshaft 180 custom $2,500
con rods carillo/rr/crower $1,500
bearings con and main $200
pistons je fsr 7cc $750
roller lifters lunati $360
push rods chrome moley $130
rocker arms jesel $1,150
springs/ti retainers compcams $500
valves ferrea or manley $500
cam custom $500
ems aem 4 $800
head gasket cometic MLS $200
arp studs arp stud $300
oil pump high flow $100
gasket set set $200
water pump stock type $100
Here is my build spreadsheet. Am I missing things here? I went through the build from bottom up in my head so I could be forgetting an item two.
09-02-2012, 10:02 PM
#27
$4500
The 10K I think is realistic and does not include the donnor engine from a GTO. When looking at the spread sheet their are only two items that jump out from me as being less or more and that is the rocker system for higher revs, basically the Jesel vs a more standard comp ultra and if I want to use the Eagle H beam con rod or custom Carillo or Crower. I know Carillo seem to be the best so if thoese are the only real differences then I might just get the Carillo and Jesl and call it a day.
total higher, rev to 9000+ $9,790
crankshaft 180 custom $2,500
con rods carillo/rr/crower $1,500
bearings con and main $200
pistons je fsr 7cc $750
roller lifters lunati $360
push rods chrome moley $130
rocker arms jesel $1,150
springs/ti retainers compcams $500
valves ferrea or manley $500
cam custom $500
ems aem 4 $800
head gasket cometic MLS $200
arp studs arp stud $300
oil pump high flow $100
gasket set set $200
water pump stock type $100
Here is my build spreadsheet. Am I missing things here? I went through the build from bottom up in my head so I could be forgetting an item two.
The 10K I think is realistic and does not include the donnor engine from a GTO. When looking at the spread sheet their are only two items that jump out from me as being less or more and that is the rocker system for higher revs, basically the Jesel vs a more standard comp ultra and if I want to use the Eagle H beam con rod or custom Carillo or Crower. I know Carillo seem to be the best so if thoese are the only real differences then I might just get the Carillo and Jesl and call it a day.
total higher, rev to 9000+ $9,790
crankshaft 180 custom $2,500
con rods carillo/rr/crower $1,500
bearings con and main $200
pistons je fsr 7cc $750
roller lifters lunati $360
push rods chrome moley $130
rocker arms jesel $1,150
springs/ti retainers compcams $500
valves ferrea or manley $500
cam custom $500
ems aem 4 $800
head gasket cometic MLS $200
arp studs arp stud $300
oil pump high flow $100
gasket set set $200
water pump stock type $100
Here is my build spreadsheet. Am I missing things here? I went through the build from bottom up in my head so I could be forgetting an item two.
Truly, in absolutely all honesty from someone who has been there and done that over 1 meeeeeelion times. Just put the running GTO motor in your car right away. No custom stuff. have a running car. You will love it. It will let you finish your project sooner and have fun with it sooner. Build this motor off to the side while you're driving your bad *** car around with a very good power to weight ratio as is. This is the best advice I can give you or anyone else out there. Ever.
Last edited by 95ONE; 09-02-2012 at 10:27 PM.
09-03-2012, 12:15 AM
#28
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I did not include the engine so that is about $1000 or so. The machine work and assembly is free for me. I know a really good mahcine shop really well and they have basically adopted me and my crazy projects. I can work there with their direction as needed and can run the dyno all I want myself so that is really nice. I have about 200 runs with my old MR2 alone there.
I do think at times I should just get an LS376/480 and be done with it for the $8000 or so with th ecu and harness, but nah. I think this will be different and a lot more fun for me to do it.
I did forget about the timing belt items. Some of the nuts and bolts and little things will come with the engine. The gasket set as a full engine kit so I will check that out for sure.
I already have the fuel pumps, 2 due to surge tanke, an fittings and lines which cost $700, but I need them for whatever engine I use. The coolant lines the same thing. I left out items that I would need or have already for whatever engine I put in there and a lof of that comes with the kit.
With the rods the H beams are heavier, but my understanding is that the real killer on rods are when you rev them higher. The Eagle H beam are supposed to be good for 1100hp, but they never say how high to rev. The come with ARP2000 bolts so I would think they would be ok, but when I am looking at these things and the rods and rockers are the only thing that will be cheaper I might as well just get the good items from the start and do it right
I do like the idea of putting in a stock motor, but that would cost me another 2-3 grand for an LS1 or LS2 with engine, ecu and harness. Doing this motor should not take that long. I think the longest part is the crank and getting all the parts. I also have other cars I play with and have a race car for road racing track days so I am always doing something. Right now I am putting a 1962 Austin Mini body on a 91 MR2 chassis that has been shortened with both width and wheelbase and I already put a V6 in it. So 1800lbs and 225-250hp is fun.
I do think at times I should just get an LS376/480 and be done with it for the $8000 or so with th ecu and harness, but nah. I think this will be different and a lot more fun for me to do it.
I did forget about the timing belt items. Some of the nuts and bolts and little things will come with the engine. The gasket set as a full engine kit so I will check that out for sure.
I already have the fuel pumps, 2 due to surge tanke, an fittings and lines which cost $700, but I need them for whatever engine I use. The coolant lines the same thing. I left out items that I would need or have already for whatever engine I put in there and a lof of that comes with the kit.
With the rods the H beams are heavier, but my understanding is that the real killer on rods are when you rev them higher. The Eagle H beam are supposed to be good for 1100hp, but they never say how high to rev. The come with ARP2000 bolts so I would think they would be ok, but when I am looking at these things and the rods and rockers are the only thing that will be cheaper I might as well just get the good items from the start and do it right
I do like the idea of putting in a stock motor, but that would cost me another 2-3 grand for an LS1 or LS2 with engine, ecu and harness. Doing this motor should not take that long. I think the longest part is the crank and getting all the parts. I also have other cars I play with and have a race car for road racing track days so I am always doing something. Right now I am putting a 1962 Austin Mini body on a 91 MR2 chassis that has been shortened with both width and wheelbase and I already put a V6 in it. So 1800lbs and 225-250hp is fun.
09-03-2012, 08:00 PM
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I am thinking around spring time it should be running. The crank will take 16 weeks and while that is happening I will be gathering other items. I have to build up the heads and port and polish, get the block bored and hones with the new pistons. Put in new items in the block as needed. Assmeble the short block. Install the heads and put the rest together. So it will take some time, but a little bit here and there over time as parts come in and I have time to do it all at the shop. I can basically spend a full day there every week or two with my schedule and they give me an area to work it and keep my stuff as needed so it is nice. I also need time to build up the car so I hope to have the car driving by spring time.
09-04-2012, 12:51 AM
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double your lifter and push rod prices. The rest is just the std $50-$100 dollar nickel and dime stuff that kills the initial budget.
ask around on your heads or spend some time with good analyzer software.
4 cylinder heads have a lot more valve and port area per CID than a 2 valve v8. Guys don't just whip up heads in the garage that work to 8k. The right valve train will let it rev that high, put it will nose over on power a lot earlier.
Also, stock heads probably won't fit enough spring for what you want.
ask around on your heads or spend some time with good analyzer software.
4 cylinder heads have a lot more valve and port area per CID than a 2 valve v8. Guys don't just whip up heads in the garage that work to 8k. The right valve train will let it rev that high, put it will nose over on power a lot earlier.
Also, stock heads probably won't fit enough spring for what you want.
09-04-2012, 09:32 PM
#32
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5 bills for the camshaft? Really? Who would be willing to R&D you a camshaft for $500.00? A vvt cam kit from Mast runs $799.00. And they are designed from current core designs. Whoever attempts this camshaft for your flat crank, will have to start with a blank billet, and go from there. I realize that there are flat crank v-8's out there, but there are no GM LS flat crank engines, so this will be a blank sheet of paper type of build. If I were you, I'd talk with some cam builders first, and get a firm price on this application, as well as a timeline.
09-04-2012, 11:39 PM
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5 bills for the camshaft? Really? Who would be willing to R&D you a camshaft for $500.00? A vvt cam kit from Mast runs $799.00. And they are designed from current core designs. Whoever attempts this camshaft for your flat crank, will have to start with a blank billet, and go from there. I realize that there are flat crank v-8's out there, but there are no GM LS flat crank engines, so this will be a blank sheet of paper type of build. If I were you, I'd talk with some cam builders first, and get a firm price on this application, as well as a timeline.
In the end I found a place that can do it, really knows what they are and will do it. You are correct on the price as he explained the process and will start with a core and go from there. Cost is $1000 to my specs.
double your lifter and push rod prices. The rest is just the std $50-$100 dollar nickel and dime stuff that kills the initial budget.
ask around on your heads or spend some time with good analyzer software.
4 cylinder heads have a lot more valve and port area per CID than a 2 valve v8. Guys don't just whip up heads in the garage that work to 8k. The right valve train will let it rev that high, put it will nose over on power a lot earlier.
Also, stock heads probably won't fit enough spring for what you want.
ask around on your heads or spend some time with good analyzer software.
4 cylinder heads have a lot more valve and port area per CID than a 2 valve v8. Guys don't just whip up heads in the garage that work to 8k. The right valve train will let it rev that high, put it will nose over on power a lot earlier.
Also, stock heads probably won't fit enough spring for what you want.
On the heads I think I might send them to advanced induction and have them do the valve job and port and polish. I can use the engine builder I have, but do not want to take advantage of them too much and use up their time too much and the seem good.
http://www.advancedinduction.com/
Crank is ordered as of this morning. Should be done in Jan.
Troy
09-05-2012, 09:07 AM
#36
Interesting build, if I'm correct I believe the flat plan v8's generate a powerband similar to an inline-4 don't they? They even sound like one to some extent. (all four cylinders are flat plane.)
I've heard one cross planer 4 cylinder and it sounded like a v8. (Yamaha R1) typical v8's are all cross plans.
It has something to do with where the crankshaft counterweight is compared to the position of the connecting rod and piston assembly right? Someone clarify the difference..
I've heard one cross planer 4 cylinder and it sounded like a v8. (Yamaha R1) typical v8's are all cross plans.
It has something to do with where the crankshaft counterweight is compared to the position of the connecting rod and piston assembly right? Someone clarify the difference..
09-05-2012, 09:11 AM
#37
Yeah, flat plane v8's basically sound like two four cylinders put together because the crank pins are at 180 degrees.
Anyone ever heard a cross-plane four cylinder in a Yamaha R1 superbike, obviously it sounds like half a v8.
Anyone ever heard a cross-plane four cylinder in a Yamaha R1 superbike, obviously it sounds like half a v8.
09-05-2012, 02:03 PM
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The cheap solid rollers don't come with the oiling provision for the roller.
You really should get that option to run them on the street. Personally I'd only run the Isky Red Zone's with the EZ roll bushing option on the street.
They are around $700.
You basically want the 500+ dollar lifters minimum.
You also can't run the cheap moly push rods either.
A lot of the heads won't easily fit a 3/8 push rod.
So you have to run a smaller diameter and better more expensive material to get the needed strength.
You can't run any of the low end parts to turn 8k.
This isn't a 4 cyl, the valve train will weight more than a 4 and it isn't ohc so you have rocker weight also.
You'll be looking at 200+ lbs seat pressure on the springs and that's on the low side.
You'll also have to change them on some sort of schedule.
So you'll need a pressure tester to check them so you can tell when they start to go away.
You really should get that option to run them on the street. Personally I'd only run the Isky Red Zone's with the EZ roll bushing option on the street.
They are around $700.
You basically want the 500+ dollar lifters minimum.
You also can't run the cheap moly push rods either.
A lot of the heads won't easily fit a 3/8 push rod.
So you have to run a smaller diameter and better more expensive material to get the needed strength.
You can't run any of the low end parts to turn 8k.
This isn't a 4 cyl, the valve train will weight more than a 4 and it isn't ohc so you have rocker weight also.
You'll be looking at 200+ lbs seat pressure on the springs and that's on the low side.
You'll also have to change them on some sort of schedule.
So you'll need a pressure tester to check them so you can tell when they start to go away.
09-07-2012, 02:48 PM
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I got Patric to spec out some cams for me and Comp Cams will make the cam. It is double the normal price (800) due to how they make it, but that is fine as it can be made.
Now I need to pick out custom rods. Thoughts on those? I emailed for some quotes and this is what I got so far. Size 6.560" CC, 1.889 bottom and .927 top with stock ls1rest
Carrilo
R and R 1500 or 1800 with better bolts
Crower
Cunningham 1500
Stanz 1200
Eagle does make and off the shelf set that has the correct size that I can get for like $500 with arp 2000 bolts. Thoughts on those?
Am I missing someone major here who could make them? From what I read the Carrilo might be the best, but at my hp levels and rpm maybe any would be fine. I am thinking 550 at the crank and 9000 rpm.
BTW- I am going to use a new LS3 so bore will be 4.065 and stroke 3.187 for 5.45L. So who knows what the hp will be when done.
Troy
Now I need to pick out custom rods. Thoughts on those? I emailed for some quotes and this is what I got so far. Size 6.560" CC, 1.889 bottom and .927 top with stock ls1rest
Carrilo
R and R 1500 or 1800 with better bolts
Crower
Cunningham 1500
Stanz 1200
Eagle does make and off the shelf set that has the correct size that I can get for like $500 with arp 2000 bolts. Thoughts on those?
Am I missing someone major here who could make them? From what I read the Carrilo might be the best, but at my hp levels and rpm maybe any would be fine. I am thinking 550 at the crank and 9000 rpm.
BTW- I am going to use a new LS3 so bore will be 4.065 and stroke 3.187 for 5.45L. So who knows what the hp will be when done.
Troy