Bought used arf heads on here.. this is what i got.. What to do?
09-26-2012, 05:00 PM
#23
If the heads are aluminum then they are much easier to repair than iron. They have seen a rough life but that does not make them unusable. But since this was a private sale, i would be getting my money back and having the seller deal with it.
09-26-2012, 06:33 PM
#24
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I have seen this a lot its not really a problem it would run fine but you can change the seats in the heads to repair them. I would clean them and have the valve job checked out.
09-26-2012, 07:26 PM
#26
Dont worry about the slight amount of material missing between the seats.....its normal in heads that are bolted to engines with aggressive tunes and some light detonation. Truthfully the 225's off my own personal engine (my former 383) looked worse but I pushed the tune pretty good to make the power I did on 91 octane.
The heads you just picked up look like they were bolted to a lower end that was pushing a bunch of oil thats for sure....and they may even be contributing to that oil consumption with worn intake guides.....who knows.
My nickels worth of free advice....
The cheap way out is to have your shop do a .002-.003 clean up cut on the deck and then cc the chambers to make sure your compression is where you need it to be (you can mill further if needed....you can change gasket thickness if you need to go the other direction for less compression).
A flat deck surface is a must and knowing the chamber volume is too in my opinion.
Want to invest a little more....have them taken apart and check the guides but new guides (assuming they are very worn) means a new valvejob and it gets pricey fast.
Want them like new and have a few more bucks to spend....send em to me. I would sonic clean the castings and all your parts (which these are in dire need of)....install new guides and a new valvejob, reface your valves, and carefully assemble them with new seals, setting all your springs at the same installed height. Speaking of springs....are you willing to gamble that the heads don't have 33000 instead of 13000.....you could replace all of them when you go thru the heads and at that point have functionally (and aesthetically) a set of heads that are as good as new....slightly better actually with the Mamo TLC.....LOL
Bottom line an all to familiar situation that I have helped numerous folks with over the years. In an effort to save money you buy used only to have questions, regrets, and second thoughts, some of whom at that point just said screw it and sent the heads to me for a complete rework still saving them a little money perhaps in total, but nothing along the lines they had originally planned for.
OP....if you need some help and aren't in a rush to install them PM me and I will email you a list of options ranging from $500 or so to a little more than double that for the full "Monte" (cleaned, freshened, ported, new guides/VJ, cc'ed and milled).
Good luck whichever direction you choose to go....
At the very least skim cut the deck and cc the chambers to make sure your in good shape there. Dont take peoples word that they are such and such cc's.....to much at risk if their wrong, even if their best intentioms might have been there.
Buying used always comes with its share of risks and additional steps in my opinion.....its always a crap shoot
-Tony
PS.....These heads (pictured below) were sent to me and they honestly looked worse than yours. They were really trashed and used up looking. He ended up going with the full "Mamofication"....all the work discussed above plus the additional porting, larger/lighter intake valves....the works. He spent about $500 more than an out of the box set at the end of the day but saved about the same had he ordered a new set with all the extra work (keeping in mind he had a set of heads that now flowed a good bit better than an out of the box head as well). Functionally the reconditioned used heads were like new again anyway....perfect guide clearance, perfect sealing valvejob, valves faced, new seals and springs....every wear item in the head was accounted for and honestly the castings were almost new looking themselves after coming out of the sonic cleaner which works wonders on the used stuff if you leave them in there long enough!
The heads you just picked up look like they were bolted to a lower end that was pushing a bunch of oil thats for sure....and they may even be contributing to that oil consumption with worn intake guides.....who knows.
My nickels worth of free advice....
The cheap way out is to have your shop do a .002-.003 clean up cut on the deck and then cc the chambers to make sure your compression is where you need it to be (you can mill further if needed....you can change gasket thickness if you need to go the other direction for less compression).
A flat deck surface is a must and knowing the chamber volume is too in my opinion.
Want to invest a little more....have them taken apart and check the guides but new guides (assuming they are very worn) means a new valvejob and it gets pricey fast.
Want them like new and have a few more bucks to spend....send em to me. I would sonic clean the castings and all your parts (which these are in dire need of)....install new guides and a new valvejob, reface your valves, and carefully assemble them with new seals, setting all your springs at the same installed height. Speaking of springs....are you willing to gamble that the heads don't have 33000 instead of 13000.....you could replace all of them when you go thru the heads and at that point have functionally (and aesthetically) a set of heads that are as good as new....slightly better actually with the Mamo TLC.....LOL
Bottom line an all to familiar situation that I have helped numerous folks with over the years. In an effort to save money you buy used only to have questions, regrets, and second thoughts, some of whom at that point just said screw it and sent the heads to me for a complete rework still saving them a little money perhaps in total, but nothing along the lines they had originally planned for.
OP....if you need some help and aren't in a rush to install them PM me and I will email you a list of options ranging from $500 or so to a little more than double that for the full "Monte" (cleaned, freshened, ported, new guides/VJ, cc'ed and milled).
Good luck whichever direction you choose to go....
At the very least skim cut the deck and cc the chambers to make sure your in good shape there. Dont take peoples word that they are such and such cc's.....to much at risk if their wrong, even if their best intentioms might have been there.
Buying used always comes with its share of risks and additional steps in my opinion.....its always a crap shoot
-Tony
PS.....These heads (pictured below) were sent to me and they honestly looked worse than yours. They were really trashed and used up looking. He ended up going with the full "Mamofication"....all the work discussed above plus the additional porting, larger/lighter intake valves....the works. He spent about $500 more than an out of the box set at the end of the day but saved about the same had he ordered a new set with all the extra work (keeping in mind he had a set of heads that now flowed a good bit better than an out of the box head as well). Functionally the reconditioned used heads were like new again anyway....perfect guide clearance, perfect sealing valvejob, valves faced, new seals and springs....every wear item in the head was accounted for and honestly the castings were almost new looking themselves after coming out of the sonic cleaner which works wonders on the used stuff if you leave them in there long enough!
Last edited by Tony Mamo @ AFR; 09-26-2012 at 07:38 PM.
09-26-2012, 09:03 PM
#27
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Thanks for all the responses... Now after having vales pulled also found bent valve as well, But damn them heads look nice now. And if i keep them ill defiantly consider it... thanks agian
09-26-2012, 10:11 PM
#28
Bottom line an all to familiar situation that I have helped numerous folks with over the years. In an effort to save money you buy used only to have questions, regrets, and second thoughts, some of whom at that point just said screw it and sent the heads to me for a complete rework still saving them a little money perhaps in total, but nothing along the lines they had originally planned for.
09-27-2012, 03:21 PM
#33
Couple of observations.
1. I think the heads have seen more use/abuse than you were led to believe by the seller. I would try to get some money back unless they were an extreme bargain.
2. It appears you have few options for local work on the heads and the wrong shop can really mess up the valve seats and your valve stem heights could end up all over the place when they finish. Also, surface finish on the mill is critical with any type of MLS gasket, another consideration for the local shop.
3. I have worked with Tony on my heads and can personally vouch for his work. Seeing that your local shop may be lacking in its ability to work a high end head like this, I would strongly consider having Tony do the work. At least you know that they are being worked by someone who is totally familiar with the heads and has a strong reputation for quality work.
I always go by "Buy cheap, buy twice". Be careful who you have do this work.
1. I think the heads have seen more use/abuse than you were led to believe by the seller. I would try to get some money back unless they were an extreme bargain.
2. It appears you have few options for local work on the heads and the wrong shop can really mess up the valve seats and your valve stem heights could end up all over the place when they finish. Also, surface finish on the mill is critical with any type of MLS gasket, another consideration for the local shop.
3. I have worked with Tony on my heads and can personally vouch for his work. Seeing that your local shop may be lacking in its ability to work a high end head like this, I would strongly consider having Tony do the work. At least you know that they are being worked by someone who is totally familiar with the heads and has a strong reputation for quality work.
I always go by "Buy cheap, buy twice". Be careful who you have do this work.
09-27-2012, 03:57 PM
#34
I bought some used TFS 215s & they looked similar between the valves with the cracks & thats normal & wont hurt a thing. Its gonna happen because its so thin there. Mine had low miles so were a lot cleaner, those look like a lot more than 13k. They need to be gone through before I would bolt them on a motor.
09-28-2012, 06:40 PM
#37
Because I bought used AFR 205's, asked him an absolute BOATLOAD of questions, some legitimate, some stupid with hindsight being 20/20.....
It would have been easier in the long run to buy from him, set up and ready to go, rather than pinch pennies, but for the price I got them at, it was hard to turn down.
Used heads have a lot of unknowns. I'll never know if the old springs on them Comps or AFR 8017's. 8017's should have an install height of 1.8 and the ones I pulled off were set @ 1.780.... Had no clue there was a .015 and .030 shim double stacked under the cup. I didn't account for valveseals or locks, so that was another few days I had to wait.... all while trying to get the car done by Tuesday so I could go to work, and couldn't measure pushrod length until I had the springs installed, ya da da.....
Stuff like that.
Tony flat out told me I'm too **** for being a person that was buying used, and he was completely right. In the long run, it was a learning experience. I lost a lot of sleep fretting about timelines and parts and double checking ****, just to find out I forgot this or that.
Sorry for the long winded explanation, but I JUST went through this. OP, I think the heads will turn out great, but I'd at least send them to Tony just for a good "going over"
It would have been easier in the long run to buy from him, set up and ready to go, rather than pinch pennies, but for the price I got them at, it was hard to turn down.
Used heads have a lot of unknowns. I'll never know if the old springs on them Comps or AFR 8017's. 8017's should have an install height of 1.8 and the ones I pulled off were set @ 1.780.... Had no clue there was a .015 and .030 shim double stacked under the cup. I didn't account for valveseals or locks, so that was another few days I had to wait.... all while trying to get the car done by Tuesday so I could go to work, and couldn't measure pushrod length until I had the springs installed, ya da da.....
Stuff like that.
Tony flat out told me I'm too **** for being a person that was buying used, and he was completely right. In the long run, it was a learning experience. I lost a lot of sleep fretting about timelines and parts and double checking ****, just to find out I forgot this or that.
Sorry for the long winded explanation, but I JUST went through this. OP, I think the heads will turn out great, but I'd at least send them to Tony just for a good "going over"
09-28-2012, 08:53 PM
#38
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Like has been said, that's detonation damage, likely exacerbated by the obvious oil consumption issues. Since obviously the heads are in worse shape than you were led to believe it would be in your best interest to have them either fully torn down and inspected by that shop if you think they're capable of doing good work, or just send them to Tony.
Some shops will not have the proper cutters to replicate the valve job put in there by AFR, and they can kill flow if they fall back on the old 30-45-60 cutters, same goes for finishing the deck to the proper Ra for an MLS gasket. Make sure to address these issues or send them to someone who can do the job right.
Some shops will not have the proper cutters to replicate the valve job put in there by AFR, and they can kill flow if they fall back on the old 30-45-60 cutters, same goes for finishing the deck to the proper Ra for an MLS gasket. Make sure to address these issues or send them to someone who can do the job right.
09-28-2012, 10:33 PM
#39
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Thanks for all the feedback back everyone. Im going to end up keeping them, the seller worked with me and kicked back some money. Hopefully ill get to send them off to get fixed, When i got some more cash to spend. For now they are going to sit. They are for my next build any way and don't need them right yet. SO not a huge deal. Though i did clean one of them up today.... Just some seafoam and a plastic scraper and a plastic brush on the heads. Then a brass wheel on bench grinder on the valves, Ill take them to have the guides checked next. Im hopping the valve somehow got bent in shipment. box was pretty banged up... And not packed the best. And it was the end exhaust at the end of the head and was the upper end of the valve that was bent. Guide still looks good to the eye. So ill keep my fingers crossed.
