Advanced Induction 5.3L Heads (218cc) - Thoughts?
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 11,258
Likes: 146
From: Pace, FL
Advanced Induction 5.3L Heads (218cc) - Thoughts? Hi guys.
I've been looking at cylinder head options and been considering TFS As Cast heads as well as PRC Stg 1 LS6 heads and now Ai's 5.3L heads. I've also thought about sending in my 241s and letting Ai weld up the chambers and port them. I've asked Phil @ Ai to provide a break down to what the difference would be between those two options other than the cost of new 5.3L heads.
The budget for heads is in the $1500 range, though I can certainly go a little bit higher. From what I've seen, I'm not giving up much with any of those options, especially with the TFS As Cast. Those can be hand finished and be as good as the TFS 215 while being a lot less expensive.
But the intriguing thing to me is the Ai heads with either stock valves or lightweight Manley valves that are stock size. Lightweight valvetrain is a big plus for me, and I'd be willing to upgrade the TFS heads to turned down LS3 valves with PM guides installed for the lightweight stock rockers.
Either way, I've seen some very impressive results with Ai, but wanted to hear from other owners out there.
Right now, my combo is shaping up to look like this in my 02 A4 T/A:
Comp LSL/LXL 231/238 .617"/.615" 113+3 LSA Camshaft
BTR Platinum .660" Lift Dual Valvespring Kit with Ti Retainers
Comp Trunion Upgrade with stock rockers
FAST LSXR 102mm Intake Manifold with FAST 92mm TB
TSP 1-7/8" Longtube Headers with Off-Road Y-Pipe
Magnaflow Catback
Powerbond UDP
FTI 3600 Stall
I'd probably run a 59 or 58cc chamber with the stock MLS gaskets for an 11.5:1 or 11.6:1 CR which will work well with that cam.
I've been looking at cylinder head options and been considering TFS As Cast heads as well as PRC Stg 1 LS6 heads and now Ai's 5.3L heads. I've also thought about sending in my 241s and letting Ai weld up the chambers and port them. I've asked Phil @ Ai to provide a break down to what the difference would be between those two options other than the cost of new 5.3L heads.
The budget for heads is in the $1500 range, though I can certainly go a little bit higher. From what I've seen, I'm not giving up much with any of those options, especially with the TFS As Cast. Those can be hand finished and be as good as the TFS 215 while being a lot less expensive.
But the intriguing thing to me is the Ai heads with either stock valves or lightweight Manley valves that are stock size. Lightweight valvetrain is a big plus for me, and I'd be willing to upgrade the TFS heads to turned down LS3 valves with PM guides installed for the lightweight stock rockers.
Either way, I've seen some very impressive results with Ai, but wanted to hear from other owners out there.
Right now, my combo is shaping up to look like this in my 02 A4 T/A:
Comp LSL/LXL 231/238 .617"/.615" 113+3 LSA Camshaft
BTR Platinum .660" Lift Dual Valvespring Kit with Ti Retainers
Comp Trunion Upgrade with stock rockers
FAST LSXR 102mm Intake Manifold with FAST 92mm TB
TSP 1-7/8" Longtube Headers with Off-Road Y-Pipe
Magnaflow Catback
Powerbond UDP
FTI 3600 Stall
I'd probably run a 59 or 58cc chamber with the stock MLS gaskets for an 11.5:1 or 11.6:1 CR which will work well with that cam.
Check this out. Best back to back head comparison Ive read on this site. The 219 HCR is supposidly identical to the 5.3s. If you already have 241s you can save money right there.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...-gm-5-3-a.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...-gm-5-3-a.html
I don't have AI heads, but sending them the 241s is a good option. Since 241s don't have much of any re-sell value, it would be beneficial to not go 243s. As it would cost the same plus you would have to buy cores. A good thing is AIs 241s perform just as well as 243s.
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 11,258
Likes: 146
From: Pace, FL
Yeah, I saw that Mac, which is why I started to seriously consider them. Of course, the PI heads don't have the same reputation as AFR or TFS even if they are essentially ETP heads.
The HCR 219 option is very tempting and very much within budget. I've seen As Cast TFS pick up 54rwhp with an UDP (so I'll call it a solid 50), but I've also now seen the Ai heads pick up 40+ every time they are put on a car in the dyno threads and usually closer to 45-50.
The HCR 219 option is very tempting and very much within budget. I've seen As Cast TFS pick up 54rwhp with an UDP (so I'll call it a solid 50), but I've also now seen the Ai heads pick up 40+ every time they are put on a car in the dyno threads and usually closer to 45-50.
I'm running the HCR ported 241's from AI with the numbers in the sig. They are identical to ported 5.3's except for the Manley valves. The previous setup from the prior owner was a 236/242 112lsa on XE lobes with milled 317's and 2.05" valves and an SSI intake. I picked up 37rwhp and 61rwtq and MUCH crisper throttle response. My chambers came in at 58.5cc with enough PTV to not have to notch the pistons even with the 0.040" gasket. Phil alters the valve angles giving a lot more PTV clearance.
Jason
Jason
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 11,258
Likes: 146
From: Pace, FL
That's great to know, Jason. And a 37/61 pickup is awesome. And it runs well with the 236/242 cam?
I'm also thinking of running a bigger cam here in the last few days and would need to get down to like a 57cc chamber to get the compression up to suite the cam. I love the idea of the smaller chamber that still flows crazy good to help a big camshaft out. If Phil can alter the PtV clearance a bit, then I think I'm golden
Just waiting to hear back from him.
I'm also thinking of running a bigger cam here in the last few days and would need to get down to like a 57cc chamber to get the compression up to suite the cam. I love the idea of the smaller chamber that still flows crazy good to help a big camshaft out. If Phil can alter the PtV clearance a bit, then I think I'm golden
Just waiting to hear back from him. I'm running the HCR ported 241's from AI with the numbers in the sig. They are identical to ported 5.3's except for the Manley valves. The previous setup from the prior owner was a 236/242 112lsa on XE lobes with milled 317's and 2.05" valves and an SSI intake. I picked up 37rwhp and 61rwtq and MUCH crisper throttle response. My chambers came in at 58.5cc with enough PTV to not have to notch the pistons even with the 0.040" gasket. Phil alters the valve angles giving a lot more PTV clearance.
Jason
Jason
That's great to know, Jason. And a 37/61 pickup is awesome. And it runs well with the 236/242 cam?
I'm also thinking of running a bigger cam here in the last few days and would need to get down to like a 57cc chamber to get the compression up to suite the cam. I love the idea of the smaller chamber that still flows crazy good to help a big camshaft out. If Phil can alter the PtV clearance a bit, then I think I'm golden Just waiting to hear back from him.
I'm also thinking of running a bigger cam here in the last few days and would need to get down to like a 57cc chamber to get the compression up to suite the cam. I love the idea of the smaller chamber that still flows crazy good to help a big camshaft out. If Phil can alter the PtV clearance a bit, then I think I'm golden
Just waiting to hear back from him.Trending Topics
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 11,258
Likes: 146
From: Pace, FL
You're right. I went and looked and his combo has the Ai 230/234. The 40/60 increase came with a change to the higher compression heads, a ported FAST, and a smaller cam.
Still good numbers.
Still good numbers.
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All your head choices are great however if you're wanting to stay with a GM
casting then it's hard to beat an AI or a TEA cnc port job. Both of these
reputable vendors have a real stranglehold on maximizing flow from a small
volume runner/valve combination. Can't go wrong with either !!!!!
casting then it's hard to beat an AI or a TEA cnc port job. Both of these
reputable vendors have a real stranglehold on maximizing flow from a small
volume runner/valve combination. Can't go wrong with either !!!!!
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 11,258
Likes: 146
From: Pace, FL
Yup. The TEA LS6 heads are amazing. If I had 243s, I'd probably go that route. If I find some for cheap...
Also, my combo keeps changing in my mind (about to pull the trigger on the cam, so that'll sort of lock me in). Bigger cam, bigger stall, and maybe a louder exhaust like the GMMG (or cutout for the Magnaflow). Either way, the Ai heads with their high velocity and good flow match up well with either cam I go with in terms of overall combo output.
Also, my combo keeps changing in my mind (about to pull the trigger on the cam, so that'll sort of lock me in). Bigger cam, bigger stall, and maybe a louder exhaust like the GMMG (or cutout for the Magnaflow). Either way, the Ai heads with their high velocity and good flow match up well with either cam I go with in terms of overall combo output.
Jake,
Below is the thread I started with all the details of how my build. It was all on the same dyno.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...2#post16271962
Jason
Below is the thread I started with all the details of how my build. It was all on the same dyno.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...2#post16271962
Jason
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 11,258
Likes: 146
From: Pace, FL
Talked to Phil today and the HCR 219cc 241 program looks like the winner for me. The complete package is pretty awesome, and I recommend any DIY gearhead to consider his system matched packages because he sets the heads up for the cam you select (compression, springs, pushrods, piston-to-valve clearance) and he cam doctors the cam to make sure it can be installed dot-to-dot for ease of installation.
I'm also going to use either one of his custom grinds: 226/234 .600"/.600" 113 with 11.5:1 CR. Has easier lobes. Or the more aggressively lobed profile of 228/236 .626"/.626" 114 with something like 11.3:1 CR (due to clearance issues). Right now leaning to the bigger cam (still very streetable).
For $1995 the package includes:
Ai HCR 219cc Full CNC Porting Package
Ai Custom 228/236 .626"/.626" 114 LSA Camshaft
Ai Hardened 4130 ChromeMoly Pushrods 5/16" x .080 Wall x 7.xxx
GM MLS Head Gasket .051" Compressed
BTR Platinum .660" Dual Spring Kit w/ Ti Retainers Upgrade
And for another $195 Phil will install the Comp LS Rocker Arm Trunion Kit into my existing rockers. I'll just send them in with my heads to get all the work done. I'm also going to pick up an Ai ported LS6 oil pump.
Should be good for 85-100rwhp over stock heads/cam.
I'm also going to use either one of his custom grinds: 226/234 .600"/.600" 113 with 11.5:1 CR. Has easier lobes. Or the more aggressively lobed profile of 228/236 .626"/.626" 114 with something like 11.3:1 CR (due to clearance issues). Right now leaning to the bigger cam (still very streetable).
For $1995 the package includes:
Ai HCR 219cc Full CNC Porting Package
Ai Custom 228/236 .626"/.626" 114 LSA Camshaft
Ai Hardened 4130 ChromeMoly Pushrods 5/16" x .080 Wall x 7.xxx
GM MLS Head Gasket .051" Compressed
BTR Platinum .660" Dual Spring Kit w/ Ti Retainers Upgrade
And for another $195 Phil will install the Comp LS Rocker Arm Trunion Kit into my existing rockers. I'll just send them in with my heads to get all the work done. I'm also going to pick up an Ai ported LS6 oil pump.
Should be good for 85-100rwhp over stock heads/cam.
Launching!
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 201
Likes: 0
From: NJ
Good luck with your new set up I was also considering the HCR 219 heads for my build but ended up buying the trick flow as casts.
Can't wait to see your results should be impressive...heard nothing but good things about AI.
Can't wait to see your results should be impressive...heard nothing but good things about AI.
Talked to Phil today and the HCR 219cc 241 program looks like the winner for me. The complete package is pretty awesome, and I recommend any DIY gearhead to consider his system matched packages because he sets the heads up for the cam you select (compression, springs, pushrods, piston-to-valve clearance) and he cam doctors the cam to make sure it can be installed dot-to-dot for ease of installation.
I'm also going to use either one of his custom grinds: 226/234 .600"/.600" 113 with 11.5:1 CR. Has easier lobes. Or the more aggressively lobed profile of 228/236 .626"/.626" 114 with something like 11.3:1 CR (due to clearance issues). Right now leaning to the bigger cam (still very streetable).
For $1995 the package includes:
Ai HCR 219cc Full CNC Porting Package
Ai Custom 228/236 .626"/.626" 114 LSA Camshaft
Ai Hardened 4130 ChromeMoly Pushrods 5/16" x .080 Wall x 7.xxx
GM MLS Head Gasket .051" Compressed
BTR Platinum .660" Dual Spring Kit w/ Ti Retainers Upgrade
And for another $195 Phil will install the Comp LS Rocker Arm Trunion Kit into my existing rockers. I'll just send them in with my heads to get all the work done. I'm also going to pick up an Ai ported LS6 oil pump.
Should be good for 85-100rwhp over stock heads/cam.
I'm also going to use either one of his custom grinds: 226/234 .600"/.600" 113 with 11.5:1 CR. Has easier lobes. Or the more aggressively lobed profile of 228/236 .626"/.626" 114 with something like 11.3:1 CR (due to clearance issues). Right now leaning to the bigger cam (still very streetable).
For $1995 the package includes:
Ai HCR 219cc Full CNC Porting Package
Ai Custom 228/236 .626"/.626" 114 LSA Camshaft
Ai Hardened 4130 ChromeMoly Pushrods 5/16" x .080 Wall x 7.xxx
GM MLS Head Gasket .051" Compressed
BTR Platinum .660" Dual Spring Kit w/ Ti Retainers Upgrade
And for another $195 Phil will install the Comp LS Rocker Arm Trunion Kit into my existing rockers. I'll just send them in with my heads to get all the work done. I'm also going to pick up an Ai ported LS6 oil pump.
Should be good for 85-100rwhp over stock heads/cam.
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 11,258
Likes: 146
From: Pace, FL
Trunion upgrade is pretty standard for getting rid of the needle bearings that fail on the stock rockers. Instead of going to heavy aftermarket roller rockers, just use the stock rockers with a caged set of bearings. It's a piece of mind upgrade when using higher lift performance cams.
The 226/234 was one of the options. He just added the 228/236 has more aggressive lobes. That's why the BTR springs are recommended to control the profile. For the 226/234 he recommends the PSI 1511 beehive spring.
I just sent him a note asking what the power difference between the two would be. It's a $50 difference in price for the package (cost of the BTR springs). So it comes down to performance vs reliability. I may still go with something like an EPS 226/234 since I know that cam rocks the hell out of whatever it's in. But the point is, all those cams carry a very similar profile and that's pretty much what I want - good manners, broad power range, and power carried cleanly to 6700 or so.
The 226/234 was one of the options. He just added the 228/236 has more aggressive lobes. That's why the BTR springs are recommended to control the profile. For the 226/234 he recommends the PSI 1511 beehive spring.
I just sent him a note asking what the power difference between the two would be. It's a $50 difference in price for the package (cost of the BTR springs). So it comes down to performance vs reliability. I may still go with something like an EPS 226/234 since I know that cam rocks the hell out of whatever it's in. But the point is, all those cams carry a very similar profile and that's pretty much what I want - good manners, broad power range, and power carried cleanly to 6700 or so.
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 11,258
Likes: 146
From: Pace, FL
One additional point here I'm going to consider: using LS7 lifters. With the milder lobes and PSI beehive springs, I'd be putting less stress on the lifter and probably end up with a dead quiet valvetrain.
The LS7 can only take so much before it gets noisy. Heavy valves, huge spring pressures, and aggressive cam profiles all will cause the LS7 to bleed down more at idle and make more noise.
The LS7 can only take so much before it gets noisy. Heavy valves, huge spring pressures, and aggressive cam profiles all will cause the LS7 to bleed down more at idle and make more noise.
Ya I thought BTR's were some of the cheaper/best springs on the market. Surprised that their $50 more in the package. I always thought the plus of stock CNC'd heads was using stock valves/rockers but you make good points.