Advanced Induction HCR 241's Dyno Results
03-31-2012, 03:19 PM
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Advanced Induction HCR 241's Dyno Results First off, thanks to Phil @ Advanced Induction for answering all my hair splitting questions and emails; I learned alot!. Also, thanks to Tony Mamo for the deal you gave me on the ported FAST 102. And or course Phil/Bluecat really came through on the tune! For him to spent the hrs he did on the tune to make sure the car drove as well as possible speaks volumes. I can't recommend him enough for anyone near eastern KY.
I’ve been hinting at this on here for several months now, and I finally got everything together and tuned. Like many, the quest was to get to 500rwhp on a stock 5.7 or as close as possible on pump gas. I looked into just about h/c every combo out there from ported OEM castings from different vendors to almost ending up with some Mamofied AFR 205’s. I’m one of those people who will spend the extra dough for good supporting mods to get the most out of a given set of heads and a cam yet retain good driveability. I hate compromising on this stuff when the need isn’t really there, and in the LSX world, we all know you really can have your cake and eat it too at a much higher level for the dollar than any other engine family.
After numerous exchanges with a variety of vendors, I finally decided it wasn’t worth spending nearly $3k for Mamofied AFR 205’s I found used and adding in all new parts. I’m a staunch advocate of AFR’s stuff, and Tony is great to deal with, but I’ll shelve an AFR build for the next time.
I also had a bad experience with Yella Terra rocker’s that came on the car when 2 of the rocker studs broke and nearly dropped 2 valves. Between this and not wanting bronze valve guides that can wear out as soon as 10k miles without roller rockers, it was back to OEM heads. It seems many have overlooked this detail including myself at the time, and for a 95% street car I don’t’ think this is ideal. I decided to go with Advanced Induction given some of the results others have had. Since my 317’s had already been milled down to 64cc and weren’t the best candidate for their 226cc port program, Phil suggested I start fresh and go with their new “High Compression” 241’s. He had several sets of low mileage heads off GTO’s as spares and offered to give me a set. In the end I couldn’t be happier with the results. Below is the combo I had before vs now along with a before and after dyno graph.
01 Camaro M6
317’s milled to 64cc w/ 2.05/1.60 valves
Comp HR288R (reground cam on XE lobes) 236/242, 0.580/0.590, 112 +4
BBK SI intake w/ 85mm TB
Edelbrock 1 ¾ -> 1 7/8” LT’s
ORY, 4” cutout, Hooker catback
stock 10 bolt w/ 4.10’s
Additions:
AI ‘HCR” 219cc ported 241’s milled to 58.5cc
Felpro 0.040 gaskets ~11.5:1
AI cam 230/234, 0.600/0.601” 112 +3
FAST 102 ported by Tony Mamo (one of his early ports)
Nick Williams 102 TB
I took the car back to Phil Smith, aka “Bluecat Tuning” near Ashland, KY as he had tuned the car before with the previous cam only setup on the car when I bought it, and I simply wanted a back to back comparison. The results below speak for themselves. I was hoping for 450rwhp, but with the 4.10's, Phil's dyno notorious for reading low, and even a steel driveshaft from an A4 car, I bet it'd hit 450+. The torque is what really tells the story though; these are really efficient heads! The car feels MUCH more responsive everywhere in the rpm range, and throttle response is fantastic! Nothing like +37rwhp and 61rwtq and going to a smaller cam!
Keep in mind the old setup had the higher flowing 317 heads too so gains from stock would have likely been more. This is a real daily driveable setup; I can coast in 5th down to ~1000rpm before getting any cam surge, and the car can chug 6th gear below 1000 without any hicups. I also managed to get 23mpg averaging 75-85mph on the interstate. With 3.42's I'd expect high 20's. Traction even with 295 KDW’s is a lost cause now, lol.
Also, I when I bought the car, it already had the old cam in it, and I was told it was on LSK lobes. It turned out to be a junk re-grind with XE lobes. One thing to consider is that this AI cam is on VERY mild lobes, and the valvetrain is about as quiet as stock. With the PSI “long life” beehives, it should easily last 40-50k miles. As a result, the valvetrain is stable to 7000 with no signs of float. I’ve never really been a fan of alot of the spring killer lobes such as the XER, LSL, LSK’s, etc on a street car.
For those on the fence about which ported OEM head to go with, these AI’s are the real deal. They’re identical to the ported 5.3 offerings and have alot of PTV clearance. This setup will also clear without notching the pistons.
Now all that's left is the track. Can't wait to see how it runs!
Jason
I’ve been hinting at this on here for several months now, and I finally got everything together and tuned. Like many, the quest was to get to 500rwhp on a stock 5.7 or as close as possible on pump gas. I looked into just about h/c every combo out there from ported OEM castings from different vendors to almost ending up with some Mamofied AFR 205’s. I’m one of those people who will spend the extra dough for good supporting mods to get the most out of a given set of heads and a cam yet retain good driveability. I hate compromising on this stuff when the need isn’t really there, and in the LSX world, we all know you really can have your cake and eat it too at a much higher level for the dollar than any other engine family.
After numerous exchanges with a variety of vendors, I finally decided it wasn’t worth spending nearly $3k for Mamofied AFR 205’s I found used and adding in all new parts. I’m a staunch advocate of AFR’s stuff, and Tony is great to deal with, but I’ll shelve an AFR build for the next time.
I also had a bad experience with Yella Terra rocker’s that came on the car when 2 of the rocker studs broke and nearly dropped 2 valves. Between this and not wanting bronze valve guides that can wear out as soon as 10k miles without roller rockers, it was back to OEM heads. It seems many have overlooked this detail including myself at the time, and for a 95% street car I don’t’ think this is ideal. I decided to go with Advanced Induction given some of the results others have had. Since my 317’s had already been milled down to 64cc and weren’t the best candidate for their 226cc port program, Phil suggested I start fresh and go with their new “High Compression” 241’s. He had several sets of low mileage heads off GTO’s as spares and offered to give me a set. In the end I couldn’t be happier with the results. Below is the combo I had before vs now along with a before and after dyno graph.01 Camaro M6
317’s milled to 64cc w/ 2.05/1.60 valves
Comp HR288R (reground cam on XE lobes) 236/242, 0.580/0.590, 112 +4
BBK SI intake w/ 85mm TB
Edelbrock 1 ¾ -> 1 7/8” LT’s
ORY, 4” cutout, Hooker catback
stock 10 bolt w/ 4.10’s
Additions:
AI ‘HCR” 219cc ported 241’s milled to 58.5cc
Felpro 0.040 gaskets ~11.5:1
AI cam 230/234, 0.600/0.601” 112 +3
FAST 102 ported by Tony Mamo (one of his early ports)
Nick Williams 102 TB
I took the car back to Phil Smith, aka “Bluecat Tuning” near Ashland, KY as he had tuned the car before with the previous cam only setup on the car when I bought it, and I simply wanted a back to back comparison. The results below speak for themselves. I was hoping for 450rwhp, but with the 4.10's, Phil's dyno notorious for reading low, and even a steel driveshaft from an A4 car, I bet it'd hit 450+. The torque is what really tells the story though; these are really efficient heads! The car feels MUCH more responsive everywhere in the rpm range, and throttle response is fantastic! Nothing like +37rwhp and 61rwtq and going to a smaller cam!
Keep in mind the old setup had the higher flowing 317 heads too so gains from stock would have likely been more. This is a real daily driveable setup; I can coast in 5th down to ~1000rpm before getting any cam surge, and the car can chug 6th gear below 1000 without any hicups. I also managed to get 23mpg averaging 75-85mph on the interstate. With 3.42's I'd expect high 20's. Traction even with 295 KDW’s is a lost cause now, lol. Also, I when I bought the car, it already had the old cam in it, and I was told it was on LSK lobes. It turned out to be a junk re-grind with XE lobes. One thing to consider is that this AI cam is on VERY mild lobes, and the valvetrain is about as quiet as stock. With the PSI “long life” beehives, it should easily last 40-50k miles. As a result, the valvetrain is stable to 7000 with no signs of float. I’ve never really been a fan of alot of the spring killer lobes such as the XER, LSL, LSK’s, etc on a street car.
For those on the fence about which ported OEM head to go with, these AI’s are the real deal. They’re identical to the ported 5.3 offerings and have alot of PTV clearance. This setup will also clear without notching the pistons.
Now all that's left is the track. Can't wait to see how it runs!
Jason
Last edited by Camaro99SS; 04-01-2012 at 04:09 PM.
04-01-2012, 10:40 AM
#4
Im thrilled I ran into this thread. I myself am in the same situation you were in. I was pretty set on some AI 243s but then I started doing more research and looked into almost all possible heads/cam combos. Recently I have been really interested in AFRs, looking what Tony did with Mamofied 205s and a 224/228 cam. My goals are for around 450 rwhp with a great amount of low end torque(99% street car). I keep leaning back towards AI though. After seeing your numbers I think I can get close to the 450 rwhp mark with 3.42s and an M6. Congrats on the numbers bro, the gains are awesome for the money spent. Did you consider a 102 ported from Phil at all?
04-01-2012, 03:48 PM
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Hve u ran it at a track? Any idea what ur running?
Did you consider a 102 ported from Phil at all?
Jason
04-01-2012, 03:58 PM
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I have the 853 HCR combo from them with the cam. I am getting it dynoed on friday and will post the results. The car drives alot better than my old streetsweeper.
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04-04-2012, 10:13 AM
#8
Glad you've got it up and running! Large and/or aggressive grinds like pretty much everything sold these days may put up higher #'s, but 20k miles down the road most guys are happier simply running smaller mild cams that drive well. Especially when we can gain immense area under the curve by offsetting the larger aggressive grind w/ a better head setup.
Most guys are better off running unported FAST manifolds. Frankly, if i were to suggest anything it'd be to put an unmolested manifold on it & see what happens. I think some guys would be surprised. 
Im thrilled I ran into this thread. I myself am in the same situation you were in. I was pretty set on some AI 243s but then I started doing more research and looked into almost all possible heads/cam combos. Recently I have been really interested in AFRs, looking what Tony did with Mamofied 205s and a 224/228 cam. My goals are for around 450 rwhp with a great amount of low end torque(99% street car). I keep leaning back towards AI though. After seeing your numbers I think I can get close to the 450 rwhp mark with 3.42s and an M6. Congrats on the numbers bro, the gains are awesome for the money spent. Did you consider a 102 ported from Phil at all?
05-03-2012, 09:53 PM
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I'm running the SLP lid along with an 85mm MAF. In case you're wondering about a bevel, I'm running a stock 4" truck tube to fit the NW 102 TB. The old bevel I had for the BBK intake just wouldn't stretch onto the bigger TB.
Jason
Jason
01-12-2013, 09:46 PM
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Not yet, I haven't been able to drive it much the last 6 months due to being busy with work and the car stored 3hrs away. I'll be bringing it back within a couple weeks now that I'm in a house with a garage again.
Jason
Jason
04-22-2013, 11:25 AM
#17
Im pretty sure the heads/cam combo with these heads is $1945 which includes..
GM LS1 346cid/5.7L High Compression Heads & Cam Kit:
•Ai 219cc HCR Full CNC Porting
•PSI 1511 MaxLife Endurance Springs
•New GM OEM Valve Seals
•Any Compression Ratio from 10.4-12:1, or Ai optimized for cam selection
•Any HR Camshaft - Ai Custom Grind, or you may specify a grind yourself
•Ai One Piece 4130 ChromeMoly Hardened Pushrods 5/16" & .080" Wall Thickness
•GM OEM .051" Head Gaskets
•In-house QC inspection of your individual camshaft
•Typically manages 440-460rwhp SAE corrected
edit: just the heads http://advancedinduction.com/LSX/AiLSxHCRGMLS1Head.php
GM LS1 346cid/5.7L High Compression Heads & Cam Kit:
•Ai 219cc HCR Full CNC Porting
•PSI 1511 MaxLife Endurance Springs
•New GM OEM Valve Seals
•Any Compression Ratio from 10.4-12:1, or Ai optimized for cam selection
•Any HR Camshaft - Ai Custom Grind, or you may specify a grind yourself
•Ai One Piece 4130 ChromeMoly Hardened Pushrods 5/16" & .080" Wall Thickness
•GM OEM .051" Head Gaskets
•In-house QC inspection of your individual camshaft
•Typically manages 440-460rwhp SAE corrected
edit: just the heads http://advancedinduction.com/LSX/AiLSxHCRGMLS1Head.php
Last edited by mac62989; 04-22-2013 at 01:34 PM.
07-14-2013, 05:43 PM
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Well I made some changes to the car and have some updated results. I upgraded to TSP 1 7/8" LT's from the Edelbrocks and went down to 3.73's. Going to the larger, non-stepped primary along with eliminating the 3.5"-3" transition from the primaries to the Y pipe helped out driveability, and given the change in gearing I took the car back to Bluecat to calibrate the ECM and check the tune along with a few pulls. The new numbers attached: 451rwhp, 410ft lbs. The graph shows the before/after pulls with the Edelbrocks and 4.10's and the current setup Timing was left unchanged at 26 degrees as advancing it more to 28 had no effect, not even any KR so there is a good amount of cushion for any bad fuel, hot weather, etc despite being at 11.5:1+ This gear is great for this combo being a bit torque biased, and top end starting in 3rd and 4th is noticeably stronger.
I'm more pleased with the better driveability takeoff than the hp gains, and I can now coast down to 900-1000rpm in gear before it starts to buck. It now drives just like stock when taking off, and it would have not been fun in traffic going down to 3.73's. From the start this combo was a pain to tune, particularly idle surging, and it was never all that great for the size of cam I have with only ~8 degrees of overlap. Phil/Bluecat said it was like trying to tune something more aggressive than a t-rex cam, very rich with little timing, alot of seat time, and the ability to stink up the garage at idle as bad or worse than a carbureted setup . All this is virtually gone. What a difference a smooth transition header design can make!
The bad news is I still have the stock 10 bolt, slick tires, and I've had to push back a rear end upgrade as funds wouldn't allow. legitimate 1/4 times unfortunately are a ways off...
Jason
I'm more pleased with the better driveability takeoff than the hp gains, and I can now coast down to 900-1000rpm in gear before it starts to buck.
It now drives just like stock when taking off, and it would have not been fun in traffic going down to 3.73's. From the start this combo was a pain to tune, particularly idle surging, and it was never all that great for the size of cam I have with only ~8 degrees of overlap. Phil/Bluecat said it was like trying to tune something more aggressive than a t-rex cam, very rich with little timing, alot of seat time, and the ability to stink up the garage at idle as bad or worse than a carbureted setup . All this is virtually gone. What a difference a smooth transition header design can make! The bad news is I still have the stock 10 bolt, slick tires, and I've had to push back a rear end upgrade as funds wouldn't allow. legitimate 1/4 times unfortunately are a ways off...
Jason
07-14-2013, 08:57 PM
#20
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Well I made some changes to the car and have some updated results. I upgraded to TSP 1 7/8" LT's from the Edelbrocks and went down to 3.73's. Going to the larger, non-stepped primary along with eliminating the 3.5"-3" transition from the primaries to the Y pipe helped out driveability, and given the change in gearing I took the car back to Bluecat to calibrate the ECM and check the tune along with a few pulls. The new numbers attached: 451rwhp, 410ft lbs. The graph shows the before/after pulls with the Edelbrocks and 4.10's and the current setup Timing was left unchanged at 26 degrees as advancing it more to 28 had no effect, not even any KR so there is a good amount of cushion for any bad fuel, hot weather, etc despite being at 11.5:1+ This gear is great for this combo being a bit torque biased, and top end starting in 3rd and 4th is noticeably stronger.
I'm more pleased with the better driveability takeoff than the hp gains, and I can now coast down to 900-1000rpm in gear before it starts to buck. It now drives just like stock when taking off, and it would have not been fun in traffic going down to 3.73's. From the start this combo was a pain to tune, particularly idle surging, and it was never all that great for the size of cam I have with only ~8 degrees of overlap. Phil/Bluecat said it was like trying to tune something more aggressive than a t-rex cam, very rich with little timing, alot of seat time, and the ability to stink up the garage at idle as bad or worse than a carbureted setup . All this is virtually gone. What a difference a smooth transition header design can make!
The bad news is I still have the stock 10 bolt, slick tires, and I've had to push back a rear end upgrade as funds wouldn't allow. legitimate 1/4 times unfortunately are a ways off...
Jason
I'm more pleased with the better driveability takeoff than the hp gains, and I can now coast down to 900-1000rpm in gear before it starts to buck.
It now drives just like stock when taking off, and it would have not been fun in traffic going down to 3.73's. From the start this combo was a pain to tune, particularly idle surging, and it was never all that great for the size of cam I have with only ~8 degrees of overlap. Phil/Bluecat said it was like trying to tune something more aggressive than a t-rex cam, very rich with little timing, alot of seat time, and the ability to stink up the garage at idle as bad or worse than a carbureted setup . All this is virtually gone. What a difference a smooth transition header design can make! The bad news is I still have the stock 10 bolt, slick tires, and I've had to push back a rear end upgrade as funds wouldn't allow. legitimate 1/4 times unfortunately are a ways off...
Jason