Driving a Big Cam/Stall - Opinions?
11-17-2012, 11:55 AM
#1
Driving a Big Cam/Stall - Opinions? I know, I know, but I've only ever read about it. I'm thinking of ditching my plans for something more sane (230 duration cam and 3600 stall) and going for a 240 duration cam and 4000 stall.
This is not a daily driver, and I'll set it up to handle the cam. But I want to know how such a combo would actually drive... say pulling away easy at a stop light, puttering around in a parking lot, or just cruising (at say 40-45 on a congested road... and say 80 on the freeway). Those are things I never see much on. With the right tune/stall is it "ok?"
I figure if I'm going to tear into this and mod it, I might as well make it into a beast. And I have already planned and budgeted for the right supporting mods, so it becomes a difference in ultimate top end power and drivability for something that is a toy that I do like to drive a lot.
My build plans include:
Tick Polluter v2 239/244 .621"/.595" 112+3
Ai Ported 5.3L 218cc Heads with 57cc Chambers (11.8:1 CR with MLS gaskets)
FAST LSXR 102 and 92mm TB
SLP Lid with stock MAF (to help with tuning)
TSP 1-7/8" Headers/ORY/GMMG (might be wayyyy too loud with the stall - so possibly a Magnaflow bullet in the I-Pipe)
Powerbond UDP
FTI 4000 Stall
Stock 3.23 gears for now (3.73 when 10 bolt explodes)
NT05R 315/35-17 Drag Radials out back
This is not a daily driver, and I'll set it up to handle the cam. But I want to know how such a combo would actually drive... say pulling away easy at a stop light, puttering around in a parking lot, or just cruising (at say 40-45 on a congested road... and say 80 on the freeway). Those are things I never see much on. With the right tune/stall is it "ok?"
I figure if I'm going to tear into this and mod it, I might as well make it into a beast. And I have already planned and budgeted for the right supporting mods, so it becomes a difference in ultimate top end power and drivability for something that is a toy that I do like to drive a lot.
My build plans include:
Tick Polluter v2 239/244 .621"/.595" 112+3
Ai Ported 5.3L 218cc Heads with 57cc Chambers (11.8:1 CR with MLS gaskets)
FAST LSXR 102 and 92mm TB
SLP Lid with stock MAF (to help with tuning)
TSP 1-7/8" Headers/ORY/GMMG (might be wayyyy too loud with the stall - so possibly a Magnaflow bullet in the I-Pipe)
Powerbond UDP
FTI 4000 Stall
Stock 3.23 gears for now (3.73 when 10 bolt explodes)
NT05R 315/35-17 Drag Radials out back
11-17-2012, 12:22 PM
#3
I dailied a 244/248 cam for about 3 years. I'ts generally not the most fun if you get stuck in traffic, but it depends on your tolerance levels. I would suggest 3.73+ for a cam like that though. Have you driven a similar setup? That's probably the first step I would take to making sure you want to travel off the mild path a bit.
11-17-2012, 12:33 PM
#4
No, I haven't driven one like that. I need too. I figure I'd be plenty happy with the 230/3600 combo, but I know I'll want more. The problem is I don't know how much more. I know a lot of folks mod their cars and then hate them. But I figure big compression, small port heads would help with a ridiculous cam...
11-17-2012, 01:11 PM
#5
When you want more later build a shortblock and put the 232cc AI heads on it with the larger cam.
Putting the biggest possible cam in an engine rarely makes anyone happy, MUCH MUCH more common that it takes the fun out of the car and then you are no longer willing to modify it. If you error on the small side it is still fun but you want more and will pursue it later.
Putting the biggest possible cam in an engine rarely makes anyone happy, MUCH MUCH more common that it takes the fun out of the car and then you are no longer willing to modify it. If you error on the small side it is still fun but you want more and will pursue it later.
11-17-2012, 01:39 PM
#6
the engine's behavior is dependent on the tune. it's just like driving a stock cammed car, unless the driveability portion of the tune is bad. a big stall really knocks off the "bad" part of a big cam.
also, i wouldn't invest in 373 gears unless you love spending money. with a 4k stall you will hardly see gains over a set of 323s. the gears might make the car feel faster, but in reality it is typically the same. or at best a few hundredths faster. the myths about "keeping the car in the powerband" etc don't really apply when you have a 4k stall. my bolt-on car never dropped below 5200 rpm with a fairly loose 4k stall. i had 373s and wish i had bought a set of 342s out of a stick car for like $50 and saved the other $200 i wrapped up in a gear swap.
also, i wouldn't invest in 373 gears unless you love spending money. with a 4k stall you will hardly see gains over a set of 323s. the gears might make the car feel faster, but in reality it is typically the same. or at best a few hundredths faster. the myths about "keeping the car in the powerband" etc don't really apply when you have a 4k stall. my bolt-on car never dropped below 5200 rpm with a fairly loose 4k stall. i had 373s and wish i had bought a set of 342s out of a stick car for like $50 and saved the other $200 i wrapped up in a gear swap.
11-17-2012, 01:59 PM
#7
Yeah, I don't want to touch the 3.23s just yet.
And here are the two cams I'm looking at:
- LSL/LXL 231/238 .617"/.615" 113+3. Has 8.5 degrees of overlap and I'd pair it up with 58cc chambers and 11.6:1 CR.
- LSL/RPM 239/244 .621"/.595" 112+3. Has 17.5 degrees of overlap and would be paired with a 57cc chamber and 11.8:1 CR.
So, the valve events definitely favor more high RPM power out of the 239/244, but the overlap is what would make the 239 cam a bucking ***. I'd also be very tight PtV and may have to flycut, negating some of the compression/DCR help. But the supporting mods would allow it to breathe up there and since it's an 02, I have no qualms with taking it to 7k or even higher.
But the difference between a 3600/3800 stall and 4000 can't be a huge difference. Especially if the STR can be tailored to my preferences by Greg at FTI. I just don't want to go with something like a 4500 or 5000. That doesn't seem streetable at all to me. But having shift extensions in the 5500+ range would be a perfect match for the bigger cam.
The reason I liked the 231/238 was because it had good valve events and healthy, but not insane overlap. I might just keep with that and get as much compression out of the heads as I can and go with a 3800-4000 stall. I doubt I'd be much slower even if I'm down 20rwhp up top.
And here are the two cams I'm looking at:
- LSL/LXL 231/238 .617"/.615" 113+3. Has 8.5 degrees of overlap and I'd pair it up with 58cc chambers and 11.6:1 CR.
- LSL/RPM 239/244 .621"/.595" 112+3. Has 17.5 degrees of overlap and would be paired with a 57cc chamber and 11.8:1 CR.
So, the valve events definitely favor more high RPM power out of the 239/244, but the overlap is what would make the 239 cam a bucking ***. I'd also be very tight PtV and may have to flycut, negating some of the compression/DCR help. But the supporting mods would allow it to breathe up there and since it's an 02, I have no qualms with taking it to 7k or even higher.
But the difference between a 3600/3800 stall and 4000 can't be a huge difference. Especially if the STR can be tailored to my preferences by Greg at FTI. I just don't want to go with something like a 4500 or 5000. That doesn't seem streetable at all to me. But having shift extensions in the 5500+ range would be a perfect match for the bigger cam.
The reason I liked the 231/238 was because it had good valve events and healthy, but not insane overlap. I might just keep with that and get as much compression out of the heads as I can and go with a 3800-4000 stall. I doubt I'd be much slower even if I'm down 20rwhp up top.
Last edited by JakeFusion; 11-17-2012 at 02:07 PM.
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11-17-2012, 02:40 PM
#8
If the cam is big enough lockup/OD could have you at low enough an rpm to surge meaning you would use drive a lot more. Then at the track if you never get the engine up to and beyond peak HP in third you aren't going to ET/mph as well because the engine only made peak on first and second. At the track you want to rev past peak so you use the whole top of the power curve, not just the climbing side.
Frankly if you want more power than the smaller cam will provide I would have spent more on the heads, done the 226or232 versions.
Frankly if you want more power than the smaller cam will provide I would have spent more on the heads, done the 226or232 versions.
11-17-2012, 03:13 PM
#11
I'll be running a 26" tire, so I'd have to see where I cross in 3rd. The 3.23s don't help there.
And yeah - the heads have stock valves and can be recessed a bit for better clearance. And I'm still thinking the TFS heads but honestly the numbers are pretty close. I wouldn't consider the AI heads subpar.
Tuning - don't know yet. May get a baseline mailorder tune and goto Tick for a dyno/street tune. Also looked at Vengeance and Geoff @ EPS.
And yeah - the heads have stock valves and can be recessed a bit for better clearance. And I'm still thinking the TFS heads but honestly the numbers are pretty close. I wouldn't consider the AI heads subpar.
Tuning - don't know yet. May get a baseline mailorder tune and goto Tick for a dyno/street tune. Also looked at Vengeance and Geoff @ EPS.
11-17-2012, 03:14 PM
#12
i am running a 244/244 612/612 112lsa in my car with a 3200 stall and 3.42s.. with a frost m.o.t. have about 80 miles on it so far and i am fine with the way it drives, sitting at a stop light it shakes a bit lol but i dont mind.. but my tolerance is pretty high on that stuff..
11-17-2012, 04:58 PM
#15
I didnt think he did cammed tunes? At least not moderately aggressive ones. I would suggest getting a local tune and having driveability be a factor. I have no doubt he can tune it, but he would probably even tell you or at least forwarn you that its mail order and every engine is different.
11-17-2012, 05:16 PM
#16
He lists them on his site. Haven't heard back yet. If not I'll see if XXX Motorsports in Pensacola can do anything with it. Heard mixed things on them.
I'm really leaning toward the big cam/stall. Hell stock it hates stop and go traffic lol.
I'm really leaning toward the big cam/stall. Hell stock it hates stop and go traffic lol.
11-17-2012, 06:28 PM
#18
Yeah, that's all I'd want the Frost tune to do - get me to a dyno without going super lean or stalling out 500 times.
As for setup, I imagine that cam will need to have 6700 shift points with a 7100 or 7200 limiter.
One other thing: with a cam that big, how are the brakes? Is there enough vacuum? I know the idle will be 1000 or 1050 or so and that'll help, but just curious?
As for setup, I imagine that cam will need to have 6700 shift points with a 7100 or 7200 limiter.
One other thing: with a cam that big, how are the brakes? Is there enough vacuum? I know the idle will be 1000 or 1050 or so and that'll help, but just curious?
Last edited by JakeFusion; 11-17-2012 at 06:37 PM.
11-17-2012, 06:47 PM
#20
I know its not an LS motor but for a few years I drove my 65 LeMans daily (it was the only car I owned at the time). The engine was a 469 Pontiac with a 255/266 cam on a 106* LSA. 3200 Stall (Flashed at like 3800) with 3.23 gears. It was a blast to cruise in. I loved to rip the throttle and feel the nose just yank up like it was going to pull the front tires off the ground. Its not for everyone but I dug it.