*NEW* Mamofied Build Pics Added + idle vid
05-17-2013, 06:02 AM
#21
TECH Fanatic
Reread my post on the pump, I didnt grind...I used the pressed together pump...its the top one in the pic.
Curious what you mean on the radiator maintenance. You cant beak the nipples off a metal radiator and its capacity is so far beyond that of the stocker they cant even be compared. I can beat her pretty hard and not get above 200...and the stall heat is in there too. Stocker could barely handle me stock. Curious to know on maintenance how it is different given that the stocker is also aluminum?
Jake, if I go bigger id have to upgrade everything else, lol. Seriously though I wanted something reliable and strong for a few years...will give me time to decide if i want to go fi or nitrous...I was pretty down on more hp due to traction limitations of tires at street temps. But now that its 50+ outside I dont spin at 90...so maybe this money pit will be the one to get the big cubes + undetermined power adder.
Curious what you mean on the radiator maintenance. You cant beak the nipples off a metal radiator and its capacity is so far beyond that of the stocker they cant even be compared. I can beat her pretty hard and not get above 200...and the stall heat is in there too. Stocker could barely handle me stock. Curious to know on maintenance how it is different given that the stocker is also aluminum?
Jake, if I go bigger id have to upgrade everything else, lol. Seriously though I wanted something reliable and strong for a few years...will give me time to decide if i want to go fi or nitrous...I was pretty down on more hp due to traction limitations of tires at street temps. But now that its 50+ outside I dont spin at 90...so maybe this money pit will be the one to get the big cubes + undetermined power adder.
My bad on the OE radiator....ours are copper brass, assumed all others would be as well. my bad.
05-17-2013, 08:09 AM
#22
That's why I'm going to do the 370. Heads/cam and everything will swap right over and would still be pretty optimal for the engine... just with another 20-25ft/lbs throughout the RPM range and a little more HP do to the larger bore.
But I'd do it mainly for the reliability factor. Not because the car needs more power. For the street - h/c setup is plenty. For the track, throw a big shot of nitrous on there.
But I'd do it mainly for the reliability factor. Not because the car needs more power. For the street - h/c setup is plenty. For the track, throw a big shot of nitrous on there.
05-17-2013, 11:05 AM
#23
I've checked out a few of your posts, that car is making some strong numbers, nice work.
Hey, if your car is a hardtop, is the paint on the top all bumpy? I mean way beyond orange peel, like welds that were not ground down properly? My car is so beautiful with a ton of Zaino on it. . .except the top. It was like that the day it arrived on the transport. I know (mine at least) was the last year they'd be making the car, but they deserved to have the plant torn down if my top was the best they could muster. . .rant over.
Hey, if your car is a hardtop, is the paint on the top all bumpy? I mean way beyond orange peel, like welds that were not ground down properly? My car is so beautiful with a ton of Zaino on it. . .except the top. It was like that the day it arrived on the transport. I know (mine at least) was the last year they'd be making the car, but they deserved to have the plant torn down if my top was the best they could muster. . .rant over.
I have not waxed/buffed the roof in over a year (car has been in storage), so that is why it looks a little rough.
05-17-2013, 06:55 PM
#24
I went out to snap some pics and you couldn't see anything for all of the pollen. . .just washed it last week too. It got covered sitting in the garage that was opened for the time it took me to make the idle clip. Yours does have a different character. I can see ~2" wide stripes of what look like bubbles (but arent) that make a K in the center of my top and a strip parallel with the back glass. Yours looks good from what I can see. . .for OE. . .and pre-bankruptcy GM.
Last edited by therabidweasel; 05-17-2013 at 07:06 PM.
05-17-2013, 07:30 PM
#25
TECH Fanatic
Sorry about long post, It wouldn't let me just link it.
Cap-A-Radiator
Home Page
Monthly Newsletter
2013 Calendar of Events!
Classic Radiator
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LI Classic Restoration
Catalog Site
Products
Cooling System Components
A/C Components
Aluminum vs Copper
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Directions
Cooling Sys. Maintenance
Put A Cap On Your Radiator Problems!!
What makes the better radiator;
Aluminum or Copper?
I get asked this question so often that I feel like a broken record telling the pros & cons over and over. I am not a scientist, chemist or engineer but based on my 28 years in the radiator business here is my opinion on which is better; copper or aluminum radiators.
There is much debate over whether a copper or an aluminum radiator will cool better. There are pros and cons to each material. It has been scientifically proven that copper actually transfers heat better than aluminum. It is easier to repair in most cases than aluminum and until the last couple of years was much less expensive. The drawbacks to a copper radiator are the weight difference (aluminum is much lighter) and the solder joints that hold it together. The solder that secures the tubes to the fins does not transfer heat as quickly as copper and slows down the heat transfer. The presence of solder where the tubes are soldered into the headers is also the main cause of what is known as “solder bloom”. I am sure all of you have looked inside a radiator at some time and observed the white residue growing around the tubes. This growth is the result of chemical reactions from different metals (brass tubes, copper header, lead/tin solder) and lime and other chemicals in the water/antifreeze mixture. In the 1990’s some manufacturers started using a process called “Copubraze” which eliminated the solder between the tubes and the headers. The tubes were brazed instead of soldered which prevented the solder bloom problem and also created a better made core. This process was more costly however and most manufacturers were favoring aluminum anyway due to the weight savings. Copper core manufacturers also started using smaller and thinner tubes to break the coolant down into smaller amounts to further improve cooling. Smaller tubes clogged up much easier especially when the vehicles owner did not adhere to recommended cooling system flushing intervals. They also used thinner material to cut weight and improve heat transfer but the longevity suffered.
Aluminum radiators are welded or “aluminum brazed” and the finished piece is 100% aluminum. This eliminates the dissimilar metals and solder bloom problems that affect copper radiators. Aluminum radiators can also use wider tubes that create more surface contact area from the tubes to the fins and helps dissipate the heat quicker. Most aluminum radiators use 1” wide tubes and some manufacturers like Griffin offer 1.25” and 1.5” tubes as well. Traditional copper radiators usually use ½” tubes so a 4 row copper radiator has slightly less fin contact area than a 2 row aluminum core with 1” tubes when you take into account the loss of contact area at the curved ends of the tubes. Most OEM copper radiators were built with the tubes on 9/16” centers from each other. All aluminum cores are built with the tubes on 7/16” or 3/8” centers creating a denser and more efficient core than a standard copper core. I generally tell customers that a high efficiency (tubes on 7/16” or closer centers) copper four row will cool the same as an aluminum core with two rows of 1” tubes. If more cooling is required from the radiator than either of these designs will provide, than an aluminum core with two rows of 1.25” is the thickest recommended for a street application. Any thicker than that and you may have trouble pulling air through the core at low speeds or when at a light.
Aluminum offers the advantage of about 30% to 40% less weight. To a racer this is a huge advantage over copper. Aluminum can also be polished out to a mirror like finish for those concerned with show appearance. Neither has an advantage when it comes to corrosion. Left unprotected, a copper radiator core will turn green and deteriorate rapidly especially in a damp environment. That is why copper radiators have always been painted, usually black. Aluminum will oxidize if not protected from the elements.
If your radiator needs to be replaced and you want to retain as much originality as possible then recoring your original copper radiator may be the best choice for you. A copper radiator core can be made more efficient by changing the tube spacing and fin count. As I stated earlier the radiators that were made from the 1950’s to the 1970’s generally used ½” wide tubes placed on 9/16” centers from each other. If you counted the fins you might get as few as 6 or 8 fins per inch (FPI). If the tubes are placed closer together and the fins are packed in tighter a denser core is created that throws off much more heat. A high efficiency core can have tubes on 7/16”, 3/8” or even 5/16” centers and fin counts increased to 12 to 14 FPI. That may not seem like a big deal but the surface area is greatly increased. As an example; a 26” wide radiator core with tubes on 9/16” centers has about 45 tubes from side to side. A high efficiency core of the same width has 57 tubes from side to side. Combined with all the additional fins between the tubes this provides approximately 25% to 30% better cooling than the OEM radiator had. A three row high efficiency core will cool about the same as a regular four row without taking away another 5/8” of fan clearance. Going to a thicker core will cool better but there is one big thing to remember. As the air passes through each row of tubes it is picking up heat along the way. The air cools off each following row of tubes a little less than the previous rows. A four row core is of course better than a two row core but increasing a cores thickness does not necessarily mean it will continue to get more efficient as it gets thicker. As I said earlier a core that is too thick will also impede the airflow at low speeds.
So which is better, aluminum or copper? My opinion is neither. Each one has advantages over the other in different areas. The decision over which to use in your particular case comes down to what is more important to you. Weight, appearance, originality and cost all need to be considered before you make your decision. From my own experience on my own vehicles I have found that a properly built high efficiency copper radiator will cool the same as a well made aluminum radiator. Like I said at the beginning, I am not a scientist or an engineer but this is my opinion and I’m stickin’ to it.
Cap-A-Radiator
566 Fulton Street
Farmingdale, NY 11735
(516) 293-9026
Hours of Operation:
Mon-Fri 8am-5pm
Alternate Saturdays 8am-1pm
Cap-A-Radiator
Home Page
Monthly Newsletter
2013 Calendar of Events!
Classic Radiator
Classic Heaters
LI Classic Restoration
Catalog Site
Products
Cooling System Components
A/C Components
Aluminum vs Copper
Radiator Shop History
Directions
Cooling Sys. Maintenance
Put A Cap On Your Radiator Problems!!
What makes the better radiator;
Aluminum or Copper?
I get asked this question so often that I feel like a broken record telling the pros & cons over and over. I am not a scientist, chemist or engineer but based on my 28 years in the radiator business here is my opinion on which is better; copper or aluminum radiators.
There is much debate over whether a copper or an aluminum radiator will cool better. There are pros and cons to each material. It has been scientifically proven that copper actually transfers heat better than aluminum. It is easier to repair in most cases than aluminum and until the last couple of years was much less expensive. The drawbacks to a copper radiator are the weight difference (aluminum is much lighter) and the solder joints that hold it together. The solder that secures the tubes to the fins does not transfer heat as quickly as copper and slows down the heat transfer. The presence of solder where the tubes are soldered into the headers is also the main cause of what is known as “solder bloom”. I am sure all of you have looked inside a radiator at some time and observed the white residue growing around the tubes. This growth is the result of chemical reactions from different metals (brass tubes, copper header, lead/tin solder) and lime and other chemicals in the water/antifreeze mixture. In the 1990’s some manufacturers started using a process called “Copubraze” which eliminated the solder between the tubes and the headers. The tubes were brazed instead of soldered which prevented the solder bloom problem and also created a better made core. This process was more costly however and most manufacturers were favoring aluminum anyway due to the weight savings. Copper core manufacturers also started using smaller and thinner tubes to break the coolant down into smaller amounts to further improve cooling. Smaller tubes clogged up much easier especially when the vehicles owner did not adhere to recommended cooling system flushing intervals. They also used thinner material to cut weight and improve heat transfer but the longevity suffered.
Aluminum radiators are welded or “aluminum brazed” and the finished piece is 100% aluminum. This eliminates the dissimilar metals and solder bloom problems that affect copper radiators. Aluminum radiators can also use wider tubes that create more surface contact area from the tubes to the fins and helps dissipate the heat quicker. Most aluminum radiators use 1” wide tubes and some manufacturers like Griffin offer 1.25” and 1.5” tubes as well. Traditional copper radiators usually use ½” tubes so a 4 row copper radiator has slightly less fin contact area than a 2 row aluminum core with 1” tubes when you take into account the loss of contact area at the curved ends of the tubes. Most OEM copper radiators were built with the tubes on 9/16” centers from each other. All aluminum cores are built with the tubes on 7/16” or 3/8” centers creating a denser and more efficient core than a standard copper core. I generally tell customers that a high efficiency (tubes on 7/16” or closer centers) copper four row will cool the same as an aluminum core with two rows of 1” tubes. If more cooling is required from the radiator than either of these designs will provide, than an aluminum core with two rows of 1.25” is the thickest recommended for a street application. Any thicker than that and you may have trouble pulling air through the core at low speeds or when at a light.
Aluminum offers the advantage of about 30% to 40% less weight. To a racer this is a huge advantage over copper. Aluminum can also be polished out to a mirror like finish for those concerned with show appearance. Neither has an advantage when it comes to corrosion. Left unprotected, a copper radiator core will turn green and deteriorate rapidly especially in a damp environment. That is why copper radiators have always been painted, usually black. Aluminum will oxidize if not protected from the elements.
If your radiator needs to be replaced and you want to retain as much originality as possible then recoring your original copper radiator may be the best choice for you. A copper radiator core can be made more efficient by changing the tube spacing and fin count. As I stated earlier the radiators that were made from the 1950’s to the 1970’s generally used ½” wide tubes placed on 9/16” centers from each other. If you counted the fins you might get as few as 6 or 8 fins per inch (FPI). If the tubes are placed closer together and the fins are packed in tighter a denser core is created that throws off much more heat. A high efficiency core can have tubes on 7/16”, 3/8” or even 5/16” centers and fin counts increased to 12 to 14 FPI. That may not seem like a big deal but the surface area is greatly increased. As an example; a 26” wide radiator core with tubes on 9/16” centers has about 45 tubes from side to side. A high efficiency core of the same width has 57 tubes from side to side. Combined with all the additional fins between the tubes this provides approximately 25% to 30% better cooling than the OEM radiator had. A three row high efficiency core will cool about the same as a regular four row without taking away another 5/8” of fan clearance. Going to a thicker core will cool better but there is one big thing to remember. As the air passes through each row of tubes it is picking up heat along the way. The air cools off each following row of tubes a little less than the previous rows. A four row core is of course better than a two row core but increasing a cores thickness does not necessarily mean it will continue to get more efficient as it gets thicker. As I said earlier a core that is too thick will also impede the airflow at low speeds.
So which is better, aluminum or copper? My opinion is neither. Each one has advantages over the other in different areas. The decision over which to use in your particular case comes down to what is more important to you. Weight, appearance, originality and cost all need to be considered before you make your decision. From my own experience on my own vehicles I have found that a properly built high efficiency copper radiator will cool the same as a well made aluminum radiator. Like I said at the beginning, I am not a scientist or an engineer but this is my opinion and I’m stickin’ to it.
Cap-A-Radiator
566 Fulton Street
Farmingdale, NY 11735
(516) 293-9026
Hours of Operation:
Mon-Fri 8am-5pm
Alternate Saturdays 8am-1pm
07-02-2013, 12:44 PM
#27
Since the weather has gotten what passes for hot in NH (90) I have been getting some detonation at high throttle/WOT. My timing is at 30 degrees and that's where it made the most power. . .but clearly it needs to be turned down OR maybe I could inject meth. . .you guys know I might as well add meth, right?
I purchased a Snow performance 20150 and two 40110 Nozzle mounts for the intake hose. I've only driven it once since I put it in, and only up to 60% throttle because it is raining, but it does seem to run a bit smoother. . .hard to tell, I'm only injecting a tiny amount at that level.
I will probably fab a bracket for the solenoid that turns on the bigger nozzle. I relocated the horns using an existing bolt and mounted the pump on a bracket I fabbed. That bracket bolts to the old horn mounting boss, I also tapped an existing hole in the frame that was near the horn. Both are M10x1.25. I used old exhaust manifold bolts I had lying around.
I'm using the washer reservoir as the tank. I used the NPT fitting that was supplied in the kit, installed it just below the washer pump with a good amount of JB Weld. The lines to the nozzles were ran under the washer reservoir. . .seemed like a good idea to keep them out of the engine compartment heat so that I don't end up with empty lines after cruising. . .we'll see how that works. You can see in the pics I went and bought some loom and mounted the lines to the upper radiator support. I plan to cover the portion of the lines leading to the nozzles with smaller loom after I get back form the dyno. I mounted the controller out of sight in the glove box, which gave me good access to the big hole in the firewall under the ECM. I crimped, soldered, and heatshrinked every connection. The kit says NOT to solder the connections to the injector. . .but tap splice crimps are not my style.
My only complaints are that I had to extend every single wire that came on the thing. It was arduous.
I should have dyno results Friday.
I purchased a Snow performance 20150 and two 40110 Nozzle mounts for the intake hose. I've only driven it once since I put it in, and only up to 60% throttle because it is raining, but it does seem to run a bit smoother. . .hard to tell, I'm only injecting a tiny amount at that level.
I will probably fab a bracket for the solenoid that turns on the bigger nozzle. I relocated the horns using an existing bolt and mounted the pump on a bracket I fabbed. That bracket bolts to the old horn mounting boss, I also tapped an existing hole in the frame that was near the horn. Both are M10x1.25. I used old exhaust manifold bolts I had lying around.
I'm using the washer reservoir as the tank. I used the NPT fitting that was supplied in the kit, installed it just below the washer pump with a good amount of JB Weld. The lines to the nozzles were ran under the washer reservoir. . .seemed like a good idea to keep them out of the engine compartment heat so that I don't end up with empty lines after cruising. . .we'll see how that works. You can see in the pics I went and bought some loom and mounted the lines to the upper radiator support. I plan to cover the portion of the lines leading to the nozzles with smaller loom after I get back form the dyno. I mounted the controller out of sight in the glove box, which gave me good access to the big hole in the firewall under the ECM. I crimped, soldered, and heatshrinked every connection. The kit says NOT to solder the connections to the injector. . .but tap splice crimps are not my style.
My only complaints are that I had to extend every single wire that came on the thing. It was arduous.
I should have dyno results Friday.
07-08-2013, 09:16 PM
#29
Well it was very interesting. Im still processing the dyno runs and getting ready to add to my dyno results thread...there will be lots of info, but my hopes for 15-25whp were dashed...for the time being anyway. But some of the details are somewhat surprising to me. Im doing a bit of homework to make sure I didnt do anything stupid...also pressed for time as I have a trip out west...which will conclude with lunch with Dr. Mamo hisself.
01-01-2018, 01:33 PM
#31
I've now owned this car, as built, for several years. Its given me no issues other than a rear lca disconnection 200 miles from home at 5pm on a sunday...we drove the 200 miles because of vice grips and my shoelace!
In any event its been an explosive street animal. I have zero complaints about this car although it commands respect. Even with several unfortunate incidents, including a hydro-lock...it just keeps ticking. Im in awe of GM's ability to deliver such a resilient beast of a motor. It's delivered much more joy than I'd hoped. It was truly an honor to work with Tony Mamo. Kevin Haggerty expertly tuned this car to the edge, per my request...the next engine will be bigger anyway, am I right? I thank the pros at Johnson lifters. They were very helpful and sell a thoroughly tested product. At each of the companies that were used in this build I found great support from knowledgable enthusiasts. Its been a very positive experience.
Anyway, it's been a great car. My wife agrees.
In any event its been an explosive street animal. I have zero complaints about this car although it commands respect. Even with several unfortunate incidents, including a hydro-lock...it just keeps ticking. Im in awe of GM's ability to deliver such a resilient beast of a motor. It's delivered much more joy than I'd hoped. It was truly an honor to work with Tony Mamo. Kevin Haggerty expertly tuned this car to the edge, per my request...the next engine will be bigger anyway, am I right? I thank the pros at Johnson lifters. They were very helpful and sell a thoroughly tested product. At each of the companies that were used in this build I found great support from knowledgable enthusiasts. Its been a very positive experience.
Anyway, it's been a great car. My wife agrees.
