New motor..broken oil rings, ever seen anything like it?
03-28-2013, 05:03 PM
#45
Staging Lane
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Those aftermarket piston rings are fine.
The OEM piston rings are thicker and made of a different iron. With more flexibility.
The aftermarket rings are much much thinner and made of ductile iron thus take more abuse but brittle.
nothing wrong here...
Could you have a look at the ring surface please? what do you see?
The OEM piston rings are thicker and made of a different iron. With more flexibility.
The aftermarket rings are much much thinner and made of ductile iron thus take more abuse but brittle.
nothing wrong here...
Could you have a look at the ring surface please? what do you see?
03-28-2013, 08:54 PM
#46
Don't drink the Kool-Aid...It's total BS and mis-information. New engines create more heat and the the bores and the rings do wear over time to mate perfectly. An engine is not ready to go ripping down the strip with only a few minutes of run time.
03-29-2013, 05:32 AM
#47
TECH Fanatic
my personal experience says otherwise. Patrick Guerra turned on my engine for the first time, tuned it, then we took it out for some 6k pulls with about 20min run time. 4k miles later (including 1 oil analysis) and the engine runs perfect.
03-29-2013, 08:11 AM
#48
If the rings seat in the first few miles, why do so many people say to run conventional oil for 500, 1000, and even 2000 miles....There are a lot of experts out there and that say one thing and others say another.
If you want your engine to last, there is a right way to do it. Everyday there are post on here about new builds with low to no oil pressure, broken rings, noises, low power etc....All claiming they were built perfect.
03-29-2013, 10:52 AM
#49
I chose somewhere in the middle with mine. I let it idle to operating temp to check for leaks/noises. Then immediately drained the oil. Then I just did varying moderate load runs up to 4000 rpms and engine braked down a few times a day. Changed oil every 250 miles up to 1000 miles, now I am in full 3000 mile cycles. I just used conventional with Rislone ZDDP.
I didn't go full wot to redline until about 300 miles.
This break in resulted in a good ring seal. Zero oil consumption. Plugs bone dry, nothing out the exhaust. Still 7 quarts after 1000 miles.
I still don't think his issue is from break in though. Although, my first motor I did break in very hard from the start and I had 2 cylinders with broken oil rings. What do you think the right way is? Just curious to hear other's opinions.
03-29-2013, 04:42 PM
#50
Well I built a lot of engines, I personally give an engine 300 easy miles then start pushing it a little until there is 1000. From there on its on its own. Ya know engines fail for a lot of different reasons, my opinion is if its built right you still need to heat cycle everything a few times before wringing it out.
Under normal conditions parts are going to run a lot cooler and expand less in a used engine. So you have to give things a little time to wear in. I still wouldn't expect TOTAL ring failure from running a fresh engine hard from the get go. BUT if it was on the tight side to start with I can see how a failure could happen. Fresh engine rebuilt is going to run hot for a bit.
Under normal conditions parts are going to run a lot cooler and expand less in a used engine. So you have to give things a little time to wear in. I still wouldn't expect TOTAL ring failure from running a fresh engine hard from the get go. BUT if it was on the tight side to start with I can see how a failure could happen. Fresh engine rebuilt is going to run hot for a bit.
03-29-2013, 05:49 PM
#51
TECH Resident
iTrader: (25)
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Houston
Posts: 818
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wiseco makes good pistons with the right taper on the skirts no need to doubt that and the coating on them will give you an extra 0.002" if you even run it to tight but matching pistons to bores is only when you use cheaper pistons and old school ways to do things
OEM blocks are usually 0.0005-0.001 over the bore size and have less then 0.0004" taper
These oil rings are tricky to keep in there.When puting the oil rails on the expander as it tends to want to pop out/overlap or the rails dont seat in the groove
When the oil ring expander overlaps it will score the bores and feel tight to put in and spin over
The oil rings dont need any special treatment or brake in as this is not a dry sump motor
OEM blocks are usually 0.0005-0.001 over the bore size and have less then 0.0004" taper
These oil rings are tricky to keep in there.When puting the oil rails on the expander as it tends to want to pop out/overlap or the rails dont seat in the groove
When the oil ring expander overlaps it will score the bores and feel tight to put in and spin over
The oil rings dont need any special treatment or brake in as this is not a dry sump motor
03-29-2013, 06:18 PM
#52
TECH Fanatic
my Wiseco piston set had a skirt OD range of 0.0018" max to min. It was higher than I expected it to be. Is that normal? I fit them to the best fitting cylinders.
03-29-2013, 11:37 PM
#53
TECH Resident
iTrader: (25)
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Houston
Posts: 818
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes(unless you are talking about the skirt taper?) as the coating will vary,piston it self not much and Dial Calipers vs Micrometer vs Lazer measuring has to do with that tolerance you got
It is good practice to mike them and fit them but not needed
It is good practice to mike them and fit them but not needed
03-30-2013, 05:09 AM
#55
TECH Fanatic
even the diameters of the pistons at the ringlands varied up to 0.0019".
03-30-2013, 09:37 AM
#57
Exactly what I.. The expander ends may not have been butting, but overlapping when the pistons went in, which is really easy to do. Either that or the rails may not have had enough gap. Wiseco's oil rails usually have plenty, but I have caught other brands that didn't. I'd bet on the spacer ends overlapping instead of butting.
That's why most oil expanders have the ends painted... So the installer can be sure they are not over lapped.
03-31-2013, 10:11 PM
#58
TECH Resident
iTrader: (25)
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Houston
Posts: 818
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is how the aftermarket oil ring rails are made nothing unusual about them being brittle like that
05-27-2014, 02:00 PM
#59
Like Ari said above no problem with the parts. Having done way over 10K probably individual pistons and rings I have only seen stuff like the damage above from butted oil rails etc. or some kind of assembly problems.
Top rings on most new stuff are steel or ductile iron.
Second rings are usually gray iron and can break very easily.
Oil scrapers are usually steel with a chrome or other coatings.
After using Wiseco (NPR rings - very high end) for over a decade never had an issue like that. In fact never had an issue like that with Totals Seals or any other brand either for that matter.
Top rings on most new stuff are steel or ductile iron.
Second rings are usually gray iron and can break very easily.
Oil scrapers are usually steel with a chrome or other coatings.
After using Wiseco (NPR rings - very high end) for over a decade never had an issue like that. In fact never had an issue like that with Totals Seals or any other brand either for that matter.
05-27-2014, 02:17 PM
#60
Diamond has a fixture for mic'ing pistons that make it easy to be consistent but there still is a lil variation although usually less than you were getting. I know you are very detail oriented which is a really good thing with engines so I am not talking about you in particular but I taught people to read micrometers for 7 years and it does take some time for someone not doing it every day year after year.