Hey everyone,

I am in the process of planning planning my Heads + Cam build I have been doing a lot of research, but I was curious to see what lobes and cams are somewhat valve train friendly that can make good numbers and if it is EVEN POSSIBLE?

I know lift is good for power but bad on the valve train events from my understanding.

From the clips I have heard I would like a cam in the upper 220s and lower side of the 230s, kind of a good all around happy medium that doesn't have to rev high to make power. Any suggestions? the torquer V2 or something along the lines has my interest and far as sound and size, but I am not set on it by any means.

My goals: At least 430+ at the wheels (6 speed car). Car will have the FAST 102 and 102 TB, and I would like to buy a set of really good heads like AFRs or trick flows that are CNCs. I want to buy good parts now for a shortblock down the road later if you understand what I am getting at.

 

I've got several customers with my stage 2 torque max cam(227/235 .61x/.62x 110+3), ported heads and fast intakes making 450-470rwhp.

I also offer my torque max cams on milder lobes for extended valve spring life. You can have a high lift camshaft lobe that isn't harsh on the valve train as well.

I would highly consider advanced induction 243s or tea 243s before jumping to an aftermarket head.

 

Sounds like what you want is something close to what I have. EPS 230/234 camshaft. The EPS lobes are not brutal on the valvetrain, but do make good power. They are also now ground on Cam Motion cores, which are better than the Comp cores. You can run a quality beehive spring with the EPS cam and it'll run like a champ. Something like a PAC 1218 or 1518.

Depending on what heads you get would determine the LSA and ICL of the camshaft and whether or not you wanted to flycut. But I'd definitely try to get something with over 11:1 CR and then run the cam with a 112+2 or 113+2 LSA. I run mine with a 114+2 but I wanted it that way to keep drivability really smooth and give it a very broad power curve. I made up for the later (higher RPM) valve events by adding more compression to the motor with 62cc chambered TEA Stage 2 LS6 heads and Cometic .040" gaskets.

If you wanted to run say ported heads with 62cc chambers, a .040" gasket, and the EPS cam on a 112+2, and it'd make power everywhere and still drive pretty nice.

 

good choices ^^^.also consider some TSP 2.5 5.3 heads ,with a TSP torquer v2 cam should do it.you will need bigger injectors and a better fuel pump.

 

Hey Martin,
I have heard great things about you and your company so far. I am located in Raleigh NC and might come take a visit one day. Can you explain why you prefer AI's over the after market world as far as heads go? I believe AI is located in Concord NC so that would be great, to just swing by and pick them up as well.

Any idle /dyno of your torque max cams handy?

 

Thanks for the response I will also look into those cams as well. I understand lobe separation angle and its effects but what exactly do you mean by ICL? This will be my first install so I would like to possibly stay away from flycutting if at all possible. I also saw where you commented on another thread and you convinced me to spend the extra money on some quality lifters like morels and stay away from the ls7s LOL.

 

ICL is the intake valve centerline.

LSA is the separation angle between the lobes.

ICL simply moves the entire camshaft forward or backward to a new centerline position relative to the timing gear/crank position. It keeps the LSA the same, but you can either retard or advanced the cam valve events. You can have it ground into the cam itself or use a timing set to advance or retard the cam. I say go ahead and get it ground in and then degree the cam to the correct ICL. That way you know the valve events are happening where they are supposed to happen.

But something around 230 is definitely a good balance of power and streetability. I've seen and been told that you want to stay around 8 degrees or less for overlap @.050" to maintain really good street manners.

Good tunes, more cubic inches, or a faster ECU can make up for the added overlap. But for our cars with the stock ECU and LS1, 8 degrees is a good rule of thumb. More overlap means more power, but if you're looking for a good balance of power and manners, 8 seems to be a pretty good area to aim for. The 230/234 112 camshaft I recommended is either 6 or 8 if you have it ground on a 113 or 112, respectively. Mine is only 4 degrees, because I had it ground on a 114.

Martin's cam is a 227/235 (very close in spec to what I'm recommending), and his 110 LSA give it great power due to the 11 degrees of overlap. It'd drive a little less perfectly when compared to a 230/234 113, but it'd make a little more power. The differences are pretty small, however.

 

Did you go for the 5290s or step all the way up to the 5206s?

 

Thanks for the information Jake its good to have members on here that actually know what they are talking about for a change. I haven't purchased any yet but I think I am leaning towards the 5290s for all I plan on doing, unless you have any additional information.

Right now I am graduating college finally and my build and the funds are now possible and I cannot wait. My car has been a basic bolt on car for way to long. The torque max stage 2 the one you mentioned earlier after looking up the specs has caught my attention but I want to check out a few others before I pull the trigger. I honestly think i am just going to stay away from texas speed cams all together, they just seem so common now days.

My car still has the stock LS1 INTAKE at the moment!!!, that's how long I have been in school. I have been drooling over doing just a cam swap for so long, but I did not want to just have a cam only car. Any other suggestions would be appreciated, car has LTs, True duals, LS7 clutch (until it last), CAI and frost mail order tune.... but other than that is basically stock. My father and I built 2.5" duals with X pipe and went over the axels with the 1 chamber race flow masters and man does it sound awesome.

 

I really like that idle, I know you have most likely seen that video but figured i would post it for others.

 

I don't think you necessarily have to have a wide LSA to achieve a broad power curve. I know you've seen the dyno graphs for my Stage 2 TorqueMAX cam I'm mentioning in this thread. It has quite possibly the broadest torque curve of any off the shelf camshaft availble for these smaller 346-364 cubic inch engines. You'd never believe the power curve it has just looking at valve events@.050". I do agree though that opening the exhaust valve sooner(widening the LSA and adding exhaust duration both accomplish this) can make for a broader flatter torque curve, but there are plenty of ways to skin a cat and achieve that broad torque curve.
I have tons of them! You've already found one of them though. If you go on youtube and type in SNS Stage 2 or Tick Performance TorqueMAX Stage 2 there are at least 7-8 videos for your viewing pleasure. Or just search the username Martin Smallwood on youtube and you'll find plenty.

As far as the Ai port work over aftermarket here is my spiel on that subject matter:

If you don't plan on in the future, or ever plan on running boost with this iteration of your current set-up, or very heavy large amounts of nitrous, there is no point in an aftermarket casting. On a stock cubic inch set-up or any other set-up under 383-408 cubic inches that isn't going to run under boost or heavy nitrous use a quality CNC ported stock casting cathedral port or square port head will do the job and make the same power an aftermarket head can each and every time for much less money spent. I look at every modification to my car and my customers cars as, "what can I get the most hp from the least dollar amount spent." The main issue with the LS engine is around 850-1000rwhp the heads want to start to lift off the deck surface of the engine. With an aftermarket head you have a much thicker deck surface and therefore much more clamping force to keep that head down while immense cylinder pressure is trying to force it off the engine. With a N/A set-up this isn't an issue at all.

Unless you have to have the cross sectional area and port volume that an aftermarket cathedral port casting or square port casting can offer(a stock casting square port head can feed any size stroker engine IMO so that is really null here) for a 4" stroke or larger engine, as in a 408 needing at least a 235cc port intake runner to fully capitalize on the power that can be made from the money you've spent to create those cubic inches, you really don't need an aftermarket head. Is there maybe some small gain to be had in using an aftermarket head on a 346-370 cubic inch engine? I'm sure there is, but the gains are going to be so minute compared to a quality stock CNC casting that the extra 1000-1500 bucks spent is really not necessary.

This is all in my own personal opinion, but this is how I feel on the matter.
I think the amount of miles a vehicle is driven per year also will play a large part in how much overlap a camshaft profile can have and still be fun to drive. I agree that 8-10 degrees@.050" is the accepted norm on a 346 cube engine with a 3.622" stroke and 6.098" rod, but just looking at overlap@.050" will get you into big trouble. Take for example the Extreme Marine and HUC lobes. You can spec an identical camshaft with HUC or EM lobes as a cam specified on LSL lobes and the camshaft with the LSL lobes will drive much better. This is done by reducing seat to seat(.006" to .006" aka TDC) overlap. I know you know more about valve events than the average member on this website Jake, but try and start watching how the different lobes affect seat to seat overlap. That is what your drivability hinges on and not so much @.050" numbers.

There is another for you!