Originally Posted by Damian

With all due respect Martin (and Brian), it's not bandwagon'ing when it's happening all over the country. I've pulled failed Comp cams out of cars built by nearly every shop in the southeastern US. Most of those cars came to me with a complaint of valvetrain noise and the owners of the cars assume it was the previous shops inability to properly set up the valvetrain. While it was a camshaft failure, it could've been the latter as well but either way these are cams coming out of SHOP installs. Due to my use of Comp the first couple of years in business I've also recalled tons of cars and swapped cams out for next to nothing so I could reinstall a trusted product and take out their failure waiting to happen. My customers deserve better, especially when I KNOW it's going on.

As I said previously in this thread, if the installer & oils are the problem then there isn't an installer in the entire southeast of the country that can install a camshaft or valvetrain. That logic is a double edged sword regardless of how you slice it. I've had them fail on me, and I'll go toe to toe with anyone in the world in regards to setting up a stable & quiet valvetrain.


My mission in this thread is not to throw anyone under the bus but the public is being mislead. There are several shops that know this is going on and won't say/do anything about it. They either dismiss a cam failure as an isolated incident (even though they're not isolated) and/or they won't offer the info because it hurts sales. Maybe enough vendors ganging up on Comp due to loss of sales will force them to establish some better QC and better treat their customers. While you're at it, tell them to make sure their ICL is at least within 1-2 degrees, and not the 3-5 off that I've seen.


Cheers.

Originally Posted by Patrick G

Over the years, cam design has progressed at a very rapid pace. If you recall back to 1998 or 1999, the best cam lobes on the market were the Comp Xtreme Energy High Lift lobes. Commonly known as XE lobes, they were very good .550-.570" lift lobes that had good valve control and were quiet. Beehive springs and the early duals that were available at the time seemed to work just fine with them.

But the bar kept getting raised. Savvy shops like LPE and LG asked Comp to create even faster lobes for their own proprietary cams. LSK and XE-R lobes were born. Soon people were making even more power than with the old XE lobes and the popular Crane lobes (remember those?).

The problem was, head porters started adding larger, heavier valves for their high flowing cylinder heads, and the spring and pushrod technology wasn't keeping pace. Now, those fast XE-R and LSK lobes weren't very happy when you coupled them up with a 2.08" or larger valve and a Patriot Gold or Extreme spring.

Comp continued raising the bar with their LSL/LSR line of lobes a few years ago and again, more power was found...at least for a little while. Problem was, the small gains in power were being squandered by installers who would use cheap valve springs, heavy solid stainless vales, and flimsy pushrods.

Most of the Comp cam lobes I've used for the past 3-4 years have been designs that are LESS radical and offer better valvetrain stability. This is why the LSG lobes (aka original EPS lobes), LXL lobes (the softer closing, quieter ones), and HUC lobes (modern marine lobe) became a much bigger part of my custom cam recommendations. Valve control problems were killing power and wrecking people's valvetrain. Obviously, Comp became a victim of their own ambition. Their technology had outpaced the experience of their young installers and combos were falling apart.

As mentioned, this is not all Comp's fault. Much of the problem lies with people specing out too fast of cam lobes for too flimsy of a valvetrain combo. On the flip side, some people are now specing too stout of springs for their combos and it's destroying lifters or worse. The bad combos exposed any weakness in the heat treatment and this is a big reason why you're seeing so many failures.

Slower lobes help, better heat treatment helps, better springs and pushrods help, better oil helps. Make a mistake with one of these, you might still be OK. Make a mistake on all 4 and you can kiss the cams goodbye in short order. Shops like Tick see few failures because they are installing the combos they spec. Shops like Spartan saw a lot of failures come in their shop because they were installed by God knows who?

But back to Comp. I think the majority of their lobes are too fast, I think the quality of their heat treatment has gotten thinner in the search of faster lobes, and I think that because they have gotten SO busy, they have stopped sweating the details on sending out custom cams ground on the proper centerline. It happens. You get popular and you have to add inexperienced machinists to pick up the slack. It happens. I just got tired of it happening to me.

Originally Posted by JakeFusion™

This is an enlightening thread.

Originally Posted by Martin@Tick

So you're not going to answer my question about the set-ups and what the lobes were, lifters used, valve springs used, oil used etc.?

Originally Posted by Martin@Tick

The last 15-20 cams we have installed from comp have all been within 1-2 degrees on the ICL and 75% of them are within .5-1.0 degree. Not 3-5.

Originally Posted by Martin@Tick

My problem with your statements is you're making it sound like EVERY comp cam will be off 3-5 degrees or will have a core issue. You know that is not the case Damian. When Brian Tooley and Greg Good BOTH in the same thread say they've not seen these issues it says something. Those two guys are some of if not THE most recognized and well known cylinder head/valve-train guys in the country.

Originally Posted by Patrick G

Slower lobes help, better heat treatment helps, better springs and pushrods help, better oil helps. Make a mistake with one of these, you might still be OK. Make a mistake on all 4 and you can kiss the cams goodbye in short order.

Originally Posted by Damian

I use their Magnum series pushrods all the time. No problems there. AFAIK their Comp "R" lifters are basically an LS7 lifter. I've used them as well with no issues.

Originally Posted by Patrick G

Martin, perhaps this may shed a little more light on what other shops are seeing.

About a year ago, I had a very enlightening conversation with Joseph Potak while he was still with Texas Speed. I was voicing my displeasure about the intake centerlines of my custom Comp cams being off. He had some interesting observations. Texas Speed is far and away the largest LS cam seller for Comp and Joseph would handle dozens of cam installs every week. Here's what he had to say.

Basically, if it were a standard TSP shelf-cam that they would order in large quantities (like their 228R, TV2, MS3, etc), the durations and intake centerlines would be spot on. But it was when they would place an order for a CUSTOM cam (single cam order), then they would run into trouble. According to Joseph, about 50% of the time, those one-off custom cams were not ground to the proper ICL. Sometimes they'd be 4-6 degrees off.

Moral of the story? Buy a shelf cam from a Comp dealer if you don't want to degree it because it will probably be ground right. If you're going to get a special custom cam, it's probably better to get it from a smaller cam company who will sweat the details and get it ground right. For somebody like Josh at Spartan Performance or Geoff at Engine Power Systems, they do a ton of custom cams so it's better for them to deal with a cam manufacturer who make their cams out of 8620 chrome moly and guarantee them to be within 1/2 degree of duration and intake centerline.

Originally Posted by Martin@Tick

Patrick,

As always you provide great unbiased information, I've always highly respected you for that. More than 50% of my orders now are what we consider "shelf" cams here at Tick, but the majority are still considered "custom". We didn't sell many camshafts at Tick before I worked here. In the month of January 2013 alone we sold 50% of what had been sold in the prior 5 years of our account being active at Comp. I'm sure before long we may run into the issue of what Damian has seen....I pray that is not the case though.

I consider cam grinding my true passion, what I am good at, and I take massive amounts of pride into every camshaft I specify or have ground. I first have to make sure if Tick Performance's name is on the product that it is a quality product. Then secondary to that, I ensure it is a quality product as my name goes on that product as well as the one that specified the grind.

For those that are following this thread, I have put a inquiry with my Comp Cams rep on the cost of having ALL of our cams from here on out ground on 8620 Billet cores. It will be an upcharge, BUT it will ENSURE this issue does not arise with those that are troubled by some of the posts here in this thread. As Patrick has said these are the same cores being used by Cam Motion by EPS and Josh at Spartan. I will know the cost here soon and the change will be made on our end at Tick Performance when the information is known.

Originally Posted by Damian

Sure, I'll happily answer your question. However it's an irrelevant piece of information considering 99% of the Comp failures I've experienced have been set up by other shops as previously mentioned 3-4 times already.

But to entertain your question, I'm extremely **** about a lightweight valvetrain. I never use double springs and/or high spring pressures unless I absolutely have to. Most of the time we use LS7 lifters due to the pricing point vs. any other decent aftermarket lifter available. Don't like heavy stainless valves unless it's a must. As far as oil, I usually recommend Amsoil if it's in the customers budget. If not, I use Pennzoil with a zinc additive. And obviously preload is always measure, as I try to get preload to the quiet side whenever possible.

I usually use a JP performance single roller adj timing set, and have gotten completely away from using LS2 chains & stock timing sets. Too much slop. A Melling high volume pump is also standard issue and I will not install a camshaft without one.



A VERY well known vendor and engine builder I deal with on a daily basis (who is also a sponsor, I'll let him chime in if he wants) can confirm sending 5+ camshafts back per MONTH for quite a while. Until Comp figured out he was going to keep sending them back, then they tightened up their QC for him. I assume they probably do the same for some of the larger vendors like yourself to ensure the cams are more accurate. That of course, is an assumption and not a proven fact. I've personally thrown a wheel on 8-10 Comp Cams over the years that have been pretty far off. But for the longest, I assumed it was just an oopsie mistake and dismissed a QC issue.

FWIW, Cam Motion actually DOCTORS each cam before it leaves the ship. So the sheet you get with their camshafts is EXACTLY what it is and you know exactly what you're installing. A Comp cam these days is like a box of chocolates..........




Martin, my statements are based off of what I've seen coming from everywhere. Not just my town, city, or state. The entire east side of the country. I've also posted a picture with irrefutable proof. Every one of those cams sitting on that table in that picture is from a different shop. I don't know how much more concrete you can get than that.


I really have no dog in this fight other than sharing info the public needs to know. I don't make 1 red cent off of cam sales with Cam Motion. All of my orders through them are paid for directly by the customer. I call, tell them the specs/lobes I want, and the customer handles the rest. I do not sell cams or make profit off of one vendor or the other. That's why I feel my opinion is less bias. Obviously a Comp VENDOR is going to argue the opposite.

Originally Posted by fly boy_1

Would you guys in the know care to list what springs you prefer to avoid destroying lobes? Its been mentioned that heavier pressure dual springs might be overused, so when it it appropriate? I have a 230/234 EPS cam ground by comp, with trickflow pushrods and some tea gold springs(dual), all sourced from Geoff of EPS. I hope mine lasts...

Originally Posted by Patrick G

Martin, perhaps this may shed a little more light on what other shops are seeing.

About a year ago, I had a very enlightening conversation with Joseph Potak while he was still with Texas Speed. I was voicing my displeasure about the intake centerlines of my custom Comp cams being off. He had some interesting observations. Texas Speed is far and away the largest LS cam seller for Comp and Joseph would handle dozens of cam installs every week. Here's what he had to say.

Basically, if it were a standard TSP shelf-cam that they would order in large quantities (like their 228R, TV2, MS3, etc), the durations and intake centerlines would be spot on. But it was when they would place an order for a CUSTOM cam (single cam order), then they would run into trouble. According to Joseph, about 50% of the time, those one-off custom cams were not ground to the proper ICL. Sometimes they'd be 4-6 degrees off.

Moral of the story? Buy a shelf cam from a Comp dealer if you don't want to degree it because it will probably be ground right. If you're going to get a special custom cam, it's probably better to get it from a smaller cam company who will sweat the details and get it ground right. For somebody like Josh at Spartan Performance or Geoff at Engine Power Systems, they do a ton of custom cams so it's better for them to deal with a cam manufacturer who make their cams out of 8620 chrome moly and guarantee them to be within 1/2 degree of duration and intake centerline.

Originally Posted by Exeodus

It is going into a bolt-on LS1 using the stock lifters with 44,000 on the clock.

Originally Posted by pauls99z28

You should just get New lifters while in there. I'd assume the shop doing a professional install will degree the cam but doesnt hurt to call them to verify and have them make sure its degree'd.

Originally Posted by Exeodus

Changing lifters would require removing the heads, and if I went that far, I would put different heads on, which I can't afford.

Originally Posted by Martin@Tick

You've stated what Comp has told you, and what you have pulled out, but no notion as to what lobes were being used, what lifters, what oils etc. in the cars you pulled these failed comp cams out of before you changed them over. If you don't know, just say, "I don't know."