What's up with Comp Cams ?
04-25-2013, 06:59 PM
#142
I apologize. My mind will shoot off into left field on me causing me to forget certain things before I finalize a post.
The majority of the lobe failures I saw were XE-R and LSL. Most lifters looked like GM stuff, although I have personally seen & repaired a Comp failure that took out some Morel link bars. Oils? Dunno. Most of these cars have run their course and are in need of repair by the time I see them.
That statement tells me a cheaper/softer core is being sold to the public. As one of Comps vendors Martin, I'd advise your Comp rep to discontinue this cheaper core before they damage their reputation any further.
I'm about done in this one but I'll touch on one last thing. The oil argument can only go so far when you've got other cam vendors having no issues. Since switching to Cam Motion 3 years ago I've been averaging 20-30 cam installs a year. In those 3 years, I have yet to have one come back with an issue. It is what it is, gentleman. I'm sure reputable vendors like Tick will do what's in their power to ensure their customers are taken care of and hopefully the nudge from them (and others) will force Comp to step up their game as well. As Patrick touched on, keeping up with demand can be tough but I think at this point raising prices a few bucks and using better metals is gonna be a heck of a lot better than having 100's of people across the US talking about their cam failures in front of thousands of people on forums..
I'm gonna make like a baby and head on out.
The majority of the lobe failures I saw were XE-R and LSL. Most lifters looked like GM stuff, although I have personally seen & repaired a Comp failure that took out some Morel link bars. Oils? Dunno. Most of these cars have run their course and are in need of repair by the time I see them.
That statement tells me a cheaper/softer core is being sold to the public. As one of Comps vendors Martin, I'd advise your Comp rep to discontinue this cheaper core before they damage their reputation any further.
I'm about done in this one but I'll touch on one last thing. The oil argument can only go so far when you've got other cam vendors having no issues. Since switching to Cam Motion 3 years ago I've been averaging 20-30 cam installs a year. In those 3 years, I have yet to have one come back with an issue. It is what it is, gentleman. I'm sure reputable vendors like Tick will do what's in their power to ensure their customers are taken care of and hopefully the nudge from them (and others) will force Comp to step up their game as well. As Patrick touched on, keeping up with demand can be tough but I think at this point raising prices a few bucks and using better metals is gonna be a heck of a lot better than having 100's of people across the US talking about their cam failures in front of thousands of people on forums..
I'm gonna make like a baby and head on out.
I'm sure Comp is watching this thread so no need for me to tell them really. I believe a 5150 core is what is normally used, but not 100% on that. Same core that's been used for 10/20/30 years before I'm sure.
Just to play devil's advocate, and I know you said you were leaving and I'm not baiting you in any way...but how can you be so sure the cam took the lifter out? You honestly don't know for sure unless you spintron test it for hours on end until it happens in front of you. No offense, but you assumed the cam took the lifter out not the lifter taking the cam out which we've seen just this year with a LSK lobed cam with too much open spring pressure(approaching 490lbs.).
So the failures you saw were of the more aggressive lobe type it seems. Although I believe Tooley has done plenty of spintron and cam analysis that points to the XE-R being much more aggressive than a LSL lobe.
Thank you for the kind words about our business though, it is much appreciated and I respect you for your opinions. NO hard feelings on my end.
04-25-2013, 07:11 PM
#143
It was asked what setups were used in cam failures. I don't know if that was a general question to anyone of specifically for Damian. This is, well was my setup;
Stock 346 short block
EPS 226/230 .598/600 lift on 112+2 LSA
TEA 5.3 1.5 heads w/ Comp 921's set at 1.72
Trick Flow pushrods
Stock rockers w/ trunion upgrade
Stock lifters
Mobil 1 5w30
The ONLY reason I posted the pics of the cam before Comp has looked at it is because Geoff said it was cam failure. I'm shipping the cam back tomorrow and will not say anything negative towards Comp at this time.
Stock 346 short block
EPS 226/230 .598/600 lift on 112+2 LSA
TEA 5.3 1.5 heads w/ Comp 921's set at 1.72
Trick Flow pushrods
Stock rockers w/ trunion upgrade
Stock lifters
Mobil 1 5w30
The ONLY reason I posted the pics of the cam before Comp has looked at it is because Geoff said it was cam failure. I'm shipping the cam back tomorrow and will not say anything negative towards Comp at this time.
04-25-2013, 10:36 PM
#144
Just to play devil's advocate, and I know you said you were leaving and I'm not baiting you in any way...but how can you be so sure the cam took the lifter out? You honestly don't know for sure unless you spintron test it for hours on end until it happens in front of you. No offense, but you assumed the cam took the lifter out not the lifter taking the cam out which we've seen just this year with a LSK lobed cam with too much open spring pressure(approaching 490lbs.).
490lbs
..... I never run a heavy spring. I do not believe the harmonics of most heavier duals are nearly as good as a quality beehive @ high rpm. And then you've got cam lobe crushing 450-500lb open pressures that are absolutely unnecessary. I run the PSI1511 ML's most of the time. It's an excellent spring that doesn't smash the lifter/camshaft. If I need more insurance for a rowdy lobe with higher lift I've recently switched to the BTR's and have been happy with them. Brian and I go way back. It's been a pleasure using his products so far. Any time. Tick is a reputable company I respect. I have no beef with you guys nor was anything I said in this thread directed towards you. Joey even went out of his way recently to give a customer of mine his money back even after my customer was extremely rude to him on the phone. Nothing but respect from this end gentleman.
04-25-2013, 10:38 PM
#145
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I was just curious I have a few more miles to go before I take my brake in oil out, I have the Lucas zinc brake in additive in it, should I use it agin with my oil change ? Also have a comp cam
04-25-2013, 10:39 PM
#146
Here are two Spintron charts showing what I described in my other post. This is what happens with too little pushrod stiffness. No lobe will survive this except maybe an 8620 core or equivalent.
I also believe the problem demonstrated is the reason why so many guys fail solid roller lifters. You can't hammer the lifters onto the lobe like that and not knock out needle bearings and spread the forks on the lifter body.
I hope this helps some of you understand what's going in with the valvetrain a little better.
Spintron pics are courtesy of 3V Performance.
I also believe the problem demonstrated is the reason why so many guys fail solid roller lifters. You can't hammer the lifters onto the lobe like that and not knock out needle bearings and spread the forks on the lifter body.
I hope this helps some of you understand what's going in with the valvetrain a little better.
Spintron pics are courtesy of 3V Performance.
04-26-2013, 08:06 AM
#148
We use comp cam all the time. In 10 years I've seen 1 cam failure caused by hardness of the metal. No issue's and we've pulled alot lately to go with bigger cams.
What I have seen though is cam/lifter failures caused by oil. All different makes with the same ground down lifter/cam. All have started about a year ago when the zinc was taken out of a lot of oils.
What I have seen though is cam/lifter failures caused by oil. All different makes with the same ground down lifter/cam. All have started about a year ago when the zinc was taken out of a lot of oils.
04-26-2013, 08:13 AM
#149
Here are two Spintron charts showing what I described in my other post. This is what happens with too little pushrod stiffness. No lobe will survive this except maybe an 8620 core or equivalent.
I also believe the problem demonstrated is the reason why so many guys fail solid roller lifters. You can't hammer the lifters onto the lobe like that and not knock out needle bearings and spread the forks on the lifter body.
I hope this helps some of you understand what's going in with the valvetrain a little better.
Spintron pics are courtesy of 3V Performance.
I also believe the problem demonstrated is the reason why so many guys fail solid roller lifters. You can't hammer the lifters onto the lobe like that and not knock out needle bearings and spread the forks on the lifter body.
I hope this helps some of you understand what's going in with the valvetrain a little better.
Spintron pics are courtesy of 3V Performance.
Are these LS cam lobes or is this just a generic example?
04-26-2013, 08:22 AM
#150
The Brian Tooley Racing (BTR) sells some nice dual spring kits if you want the extra insurance and a less stressful "drop in & go" type of spring.
04-26-2013, 09:51 AM
#151
We use comp cam all the time. In 10 years I've seen 1 cam failure caused by hardness of the metal. No issue's and we've pulled alot lately to go with bigger cams.
What I have seen though is cam/lifter failures caused by oil. All different makes with the same ground down lifter/cam. All have started about a year ago when the zinc was taken out of a lot of oils.
What I have seen though is cam/lifter failures caused by oil. All different makes with the same ground down lifter/cam. All have started about a year ago when the zinc was taken out of a lot of oils.
04-26-2013, 10:06 AM
#152
I prefer duals for the simple fact that if a spring breaks you've got an inner or an outer to save your *** from dropping a valve into your motor.
BTR has the best prices and quality spring kits on the market IMO with spring pressures that will not wreck your valve-train. As long as you're not using a XE-R or LSK lobe, Brian's Platinum springs will handle pretty much any camshaft that is being used with stock rockers sub 7500rpm.
VR1 10w-30 conventional for oil guys! If not run a zinc additive like Damian suggested.
BTR has the best prices and quality spring kits on the market IMO with spring pressures that will not wreck your valve-train. As long as you're not using a XE-R or LSK lobe, Brian's Platinum springs will handle pretty much any camshaft that is being used with stock rockers sub 7500rpm.
VR1 10w-30 conventional for oil guys! If not run a zinc additive like Damian suggested.
04-26-2013, 10:12 AM
#153
It has been recommended for an oil to have 1400 ppm or more of zinc but that number is always being debated. IMO the Valvoline VR1 10w30 synthetic or conventional is the best oil going and is easy to find.
Last edited by 87silverbullet; 04-26-2013 at 10:38 AM. Reason: spelling
04-26-2013, 10:55 AM
#155
04-26-2013, 12:03 PM
#157
People have mentioned high pressure springs, heavy valves, flimsy pushrods, oils and such as the problem, but these same setups are being used on other cams and those cams are living. Not only that, some pics showing the opening ramp worn, and that cant be blamed on polevaulting the pushrod.
04-26-2013, 01:56 PM
#158
People have mentioned high pressure springs, heavy valves, flimsy pushrods, oils and such as the problem, but these same setups are being used on other cams and those cams are living. Not only that, some pics showing the opening ramp worn, and that cant be blamed on polevaulting the pushrod.
Greg is saying here that loft and the push rod deflecting occurs on the opening ramp which would wear the opening ramp side of the lobe.....
Last edited by Sales@Tick; 04-26-2013 at 02:02 PM.
