The_Bishop

iTrader: (10)

DCR has more to do with intake valve closing timing than overlap.

oakley6575

iTrader: (3)

Yes obviously. If you read what Martin stated earlier, when a cam has a good amount of overlap, he likes to compensate the lose in power down low by raising the dcr.

Sales@Tick

iTrader: (3)

If he says that he doesn't, or normally doesn't...maybe you can request that he does with your car? It would most certainly be worth the added cost if he will actually spend a good amount of extra time dialing the drivability in.
Thanks James. Your 95mph trap speed at 4000lbs shows that a little cam can run like the big dogs! 7.70's in the 1/8th with a 1.8 60' aint too shabby either with a 6 spd.!!! When you're not spinning as much and you can get a solid launch out of it and speed shift it, I'm expecting your MPH to actually go up some more. Don't be surprised if it ends up in the 96-97mph range with a good launch. The main thing that you need is wheel speed, but it will take a slick to do that.
Do it once and don't do it again is my motto!

Compression is compression no matter if there is 0 degrees overlap or 50 degrees overlap. That said, I do have a rule of thumb of sorts that I follow when specifying a camshaft and/or a combination of parts.

For 93 octane pump fuel the maximum dynamic compression I will run is 9.0:1. For the combinations that will end up running this compression I stress a tight quench area. Tighter quench will allow for a much more efficient combustion event. A more efficient combustion event needs less timing advance to achieve max power. When combined with a high DCR, this method allows maximum power to be had while keeping enough timing advance out of it that detonation never becomes a problem. This amount of compression IMO would be finicky if the quench was not strictly tended to.

Most of the combinations I spec out that run on 93 octane pump gas are between 8.5:1-8.8:1. It's sometimes hard to achieve a high DCR ratio with a stock bottom end as P to V must be kept to a safe distance. This interferes with trying to put more compression in the engine with a large cam the amount of clearance needed becomes greater.

With 91 octane I shoot for no higher than 8.6:1 DCR and normally end up around 8.4:1-8.5:1.

oakley6575

iTrader: (3)

You're the man Martin! So .035"-.040" quench is a good idea when running 8.4-9.0 DCR?

Sales@Tick

iTrader: (3)

Yes. I feel that quench is something a lot of guys don't think about or think is important. It is very important.

slikrider20

iTrader: (9)

What does a typical LS1 make for numbers with the SNS stage 2? (Assume Stock heads) Which valve springs are recommended with this cam?

I was pretty set on doing the 228R cam but i'm glad i found this thread.

FEAR LS

iTrader: (8)

I don't know what the SNS Stage 2 puts out for a cam only car, but what I do know is Tick Performance has a Polluter V2 cam kit that my buddy (Clayton, forgot his user name) purchased through Martin and he put down 400rwhp. That's a bolt on (headers 1" 3/4, 3" Magnaflow exhaust, Lid) "Cam Only" car that makes that much power. Stock intake, injectors,TB, etc... He did buy some injectors and the Racetronix pump to get even more out of it. The tune isn't even one hundred percent and still packs one hell of a punch.

You have some great options to choose from. Do your homework and when you stumble ask guys like Martin.

Good Luck!

Sales@Tick

iTrader: (3)

I believe he also picked up 75-80rwhp from the cam swap alone did he not James? Wasn't his baseline in the low 320's?

It's actually the V.2 Polluter, but I'll let you slide this time.

FEAR LS

iTrader: (8)

All we did was put on a set of budget headers (Heddman 1" 3/4) and the "Cam kit" from you and yes he netted 75-80rwhp. (Dyno sheets/Video to prove it) He was in the 320's for rwhp. (before the swap) Tune is super conservative until we put the bigger injectors and pump on. Then he should easily see a nice 405-410rwhp in a "Cam Only" LS1. It just sounds crazy as hell even typing that..lol 400+ cam only...Wow

orthopod

iTrader: (1)

I may need to change my decision between SNS Stage 2 vs. 3 to SNS Stage 3 vs. V2 Polluter. It is my daily driver but after daily driving a 74 K5 Blazer with no doors, roof, and 40" tires I figure I can put up with quite a bit if it means a faster car in the end (w/ supporting mods of course which I am currently working on).

Sales@Tick

iTrader: (3)

When you say LS1 are you referring to an LS1 that has a LS1 intake or one with a LS6 intake?

Most customers with LT headers, ORY, Lid, LS6 intake and exhaust see between 380-400rwhp/365-385rwtq. There was a guy on here that made 370rwhp or 375rwhp with a LS1 intake with the SNS Stage 2 cam.

With true duals I would expect the numbers to be 5-10rwhp higher than what I just listed.

As far as the LS2 SNS Stage 2 cam is concerned, there is a member on here with a FTI stalled 4l60e, basic bolt on modifications that made 408rwhp and 380rwtq cam only. I think that's pretty good for a 60e with a 231/235 cam.

So he still has the LS1 intake?
Unless you have a tuner that is willing to street tune the car for a fair amount of time(meaning many hours not just a couple laps around the block) then I would continue to consider the SNS Stage 2.

Since you're stuck between the SNS Stage 2 and SNS Stage 3 and the SNS Stage 3 and V.2 Polluter here are some suggestions.

A good in between cam in terms of power and drivability for the Stg. 2 vs. Stg. 3 debate would be the LS2 Street Heat Stage 2 camshaft. It is 233/240 .619"/.588" 112+2.

A good in between cam in terms of power and drivability for the Stg. 3 vs. V.2 Polluter debate would be the LS2 SNS Stage 3 cam. It is 235/239 .621"/.624" 112+3. Or 234/238 .612"/.615" 112+3

In all reality the LS2 Street Heat Stage 2 and LS2 SNS Stage 3 are very very similar camshafts. That said, the lobe selection will cause them to act slightly different in terms of driving and power production, but they're great alternatives to your current selections.

FEAR LS

iTrader: (8)

It's the factory LS6 manifold.

slikrider20

iTrader: (9)

Good info. I think i'd be plenty happy with that kind of power for just a "fun" weekend car.

01ssreda4

iTrader: (96)

You just lost all credibility with me. Obviously you don't know what the hell you're talking about and these poor souls here will blindly believe you. Pay attention and learn before you repeat/assume. I would be willing to bet, that TSP would not agree with the above statement, and neither do I.

When you blindly agree with a fool, that makes you a .......

OP, I vote 228r, I especially like that it's proven, results are predictable, and it's still a contender after being around so long. I particularly do not like "flavor of the month" crap. If they want your mod money they should have to earn it, with continual commitment to improving products that are already really good. Sorry but TSP has been doing that, give credit where it's due.

JakeFusion

iTrader: (7)

XE-R lobes were designed 10+ years ago. LG was one of the first to use them in the G5X series cams. It's a true statement. Maybe the 228R was slightly newer than that, but the point is, the lobe technology is what it is.

If you look at my other posts, you'll see I say XE-R is acceptable if you build your valvetrain to support the lobe's jerk and acceleration. The lobe is a square lobe and it's fast seat-to-seat, which is why it makes power, but folks just stick it in the car with stock lifters, flimsy pushrods, and whatever, and hope for the best.

Comp will even tell you in their design of the LSL lobe (which I think took more R&D time than any other lobe they've produced - and this was 2009) that they were trying to create a more stable lobe with similar ramp rate, seat-to-seat time, and more curtain area vs. the XE-R. Why? Because they knew they could create a more stable and more powerful lobe with the LS1's 55mm journal.

01ssreda4

iTrader: (96)

And this gentlemen, is how you cut through the bullshit.

https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...gine-dyno.html

JakeFusion

iTrader: (7)

And what BS is that? You're doing a **** poor job of making your point - are you complaining about the recommendation of the lobes, the cam profile, or all of the above? I mean, are you stating that XE-R lobes are the best and no other lobe should ever be run? Or are you simply stating the 228R is the greatest cam ever and a different profile using different lobes would be total blasphemy? Seriously, that's a legitimate question. Otherwise, you're adding nothing to the discussion.

And the link doesn't make your point, because the images don't load. Luckily, I remember that though and being surprised the endurance lobes didn't lose much if all to the XE-R and LSK lobes. Maybe valve control played a part in that? Maybe the minimal gains aren't worth the extra valvetrain stress? Who knows? Dynos show the total output of the system. Spintron testing can pinpoint how individual components react in the system...

Either way, doesn't that just support my point on looking at endurance profiles? You aren't giving up a whole lot to run a softer/milder lobe. Whether you or I or anyone else believes that it beats up the valvetrain or not, it doesn't make a lot of sense to run the most aggressive thing in a valvetrain setup, especially if it doesn't gain you much.

And this is the last thing I will say on this: I've never said any of the endurance lobes make more power; that's clearly not the case, unless you have really bad harmonics or valve control. Or that lobes like XE-R can't be controlled. They can.

What I've contended all along is that you give up some measure of reliability in an otherwise stock valvetrain configuration to run aggressive lobes. If you were willing to spend the money for better parts and truly setup the valvetrain, XE-R lobes would be fine. They'd still require more maintenance than endurance lobes (checking spring pressure would be the biggest), but you could run them.

How many people realistically do that? Or measure each lobe with a degree wheel? Or set wipe, geometry, or lifter preload? Or degree the cam? Most don't do it.

And for what? 5HP? If you setup your valvetrain properly, you'll gain that 5HP back and then some.

D_Eclipse9916

Thank you Martin for coming in and posting. I Feel this has helped me make a better decision.

MikeWS6

The TSP 228R has def has some revisions over the years (since 2003)

Raxus GTO

iTrader: (1)

When this thread first started, I posted saying that I was really interested in the 228r (which is still my other fav cam). After reading this thread and spending several nights researching the SNS cams, Im going to be going with the LS2 SNS Stage 2 with the mild lobes. I havent had the chance to speak with TSP, but I have been emailing Martin and I think I will be pretty happy with this cam.

Point of this actual post, I started 228r, not knowing what the SNS cams were, now I plan on purchasing the SNS.