Help me decide: 228R or SNS Stage 2 Mild
06-18-2013, 07:08 PM
#1
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Help me decide: 228R or SNS Stage 2 Mild Cam is going in this summer and I'm stuck between the 228R (228/228 .588/.588) and the SNS Stage 2 Mild (227/235 .61X/.62X). The car is my DD, so I need something that doesn't ruin the driveability. I live in the city so I need to be able to drive the car easily in stop-and-go traffic. Having said that, I know if I go with something smaller like the SNS Stage 1 or the 224R I will end up wishing I went with something bigger. Solid power gains, a nice choppy idle, and decent driveability is what I want out of this cam swap. From what I've seen, both of these cams will do this, I just don't know which one is the better choice. I've read that the SNS cams can have a considerable amount of drivetrain noise, can anyone confirm this?
So, which one of these cams is better for me? I know these are two solid performers from two great vendors. I'm pretty dead set on getting one of these, so unless you think I'm making a big mistake by going with either of these, I'd like to keep the discussion on these two cams only. Thanks for the input.
So, which one of these cams is better for me? I know these are two solid performers from two great vendors. I'm pretty dead set on getting one of these, so unless you think I'm making a big mistake by going with either of these, I'd like to keep the discussion on these two cams only. Thanks for the input.
06-18-2013, 09:24 PM
#5
The 228r is the number 1 cam that I have been looking into for my GTO. Between the few that I have been considering, the 228r seems to be one of the best bets for power, drive-ability & overall satisfaction imo. Then again I havent researched the other cam your thinking about.
06-18-2013, 09:42 PM
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My vote is for the SNS stage 2, it has made some impressive power numbers and Martin says all the cars they've installed it in has a quite valvetrain. I have the SNS stage 3 and my valvetrain is quiter then when I had the torquer v3 from TSP.
06-19-2013, 12:14 AM
#7
SNS Stage 2. It'll make more power (more overlap) and more torque (earlier intake valve closing) but carry it past peak better (later exhaust closing). It also uses better lobes (more stable LXL/HUC) from Comp than the XE-R lobes the 228R is ground on. 228R is a cam from ~2003. Get something using new technology that Comp has developed in the last decade.
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06-19-2013, 05:35 AM
#9
I just had a 228/236 111+3 cam installed. It has the same amount of overlap as the SNS stage 2. Driveability is fine. I have to move my shift point slightly higher, but otherwise I was surprised at how smooth it is.
I will say, however, tht if you do almost all your driving light to light in the city, you might want to go for something smaller with less overlap. Cam selection is not the place to for getting into a dick measuring contest. It has to be right for your goals. Based on what you're describing, the SNS stage 1 may be for you.
Martin gives great advice. What does he say?
I will say, however, tht if you do almost all your driving light to light in the city, you might want to go for something smaller with less overlap. Cam selection is not the place to for getting into a dick measuring contest. It has to be right for your goals. Based on what you're describing, the SNS stage 1 may be for you.
Martin gives great advice. What does he say?
06-19-2013, 05:35 AM
#10
I just had a 228/236 111+3 cam installed. It has the same amount of overlap as the SNS stage 2. Driveability is fine. I have to move my shift point slightly higher, but otherwise I was surprised at how smooth it is.
I will say, however, tht if you do almost all your driving light to light in the city, you might want to go for something smaller with less overlap. Cam selection is not the place to for getting into a dick measuring contest. It has to be right for your goals. Based on what you're describing, the SNS stage 1 may be for you.
Martin gives great advice. What does he say?
I will say, however, tht if you do almost all your driving light to light in the city, you might want to go for something smaller with less overlap. Cam selection is not the place to for getting into a dick measuring contest. It has to be right for your goals. Based on what you're describing, the SNS stage 1 may be for you.
Martin gives great advice. What does he say?
06-19-2013, 07:05 AM
#11
No idea why in 2013 people still use single pattern N/A cams on old lobes when a custom cam will drive just as easily but make more power, torque and be easier on the valvetrain.
If you like how the 228R drives, then there's no reason why you can't make more power by extending the exhaust duration (ala the SNS cam) and still have the same driveability.
If you like how the 228R drives, then there's no reason why you can't make more power by extending the exhaust duration (ala the SNS cam) and still have the same driveability.
06-19-2013, 07:32 AM
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Alright thanks for the input guys, I'm definitely leaning towards the SNS now. I'll be giving Martin a call to see what he thinks about doing the Stage 2 Mild for a DD.
06-19-2013, 12:28 PM
#13
The TSP 228R is one of the most proven cams out there. I am sure Arron at TSP could help you out. Or give Martin at Tick a call. Really though you cant go wrong either way. Both are great cams.
06-20-2013, 01:52 PM
#15
I will say that the 228R cam is probably the standard that the "torque minded" DD cam's of the past decade were measured by as it was the first that was known for having awesome average power and kicking up dust at a stop light.
As others have said though, there have been some advancements in valve-train technology since then, and I feel some improvements can always be made in terms of valve events from things that we learn along the way.
The only thing that worries me about our SNS Stage 2 with your requirements in terms of driving habits is the overlap it carries. The SNS Stage 2 cam pound for pound in terms of duration will make more power than any other cam of comparable size. This is because of it's valve overlap as Jake Fusion pointed out. Normally added valve overlap given the same duration as another cam with less overlap means less low end torque and more top end power.
This is not the case with the SNS Stage 2 and I'll explain why that is. When overlap is added in a cam profile, pumping losses become greater from the valve being held open for a longer amount of crank degrees. When pumping losses become greater and are not compensated for, low end power is lost because when the piston is moving at a lower speed, the amount of time it takes for the piston to travel from TDC to BDC is obviously greater than at a higher speed. Even though the piston takes longer to travel from TDC to BDC, the valve is open and closed for the same amount of crank degrees regardless if the piston is moving at 1,000rpm or 10,000rpm. Thus the amount of cylinder pressure lost at 1,000rpm will be greater than at 10,000rpm because the piston is traveling at a faster speed and less pressure is allowed to escape before the intake valve closes again. This is why adding overlap alone all by itself will lose low end power, but not lose top end power.
The only way to compensate this added pumping loss and loss of low end power is to add compression. Now, since the OP won't be adding any compression to his engine by way of milling his heads, thinner head gasket or a smaller combustion chamber with a different casting cylinder head, I'm sure you're wondering how this addition of compression is going to be accomplished? Alas, the earlier closing intake valve event Jake Fusion also pointed out.
When the intake valve is closed sooner, the intake charge is trapped earlier on the pistons rise to TDC. As the piston continues to move towards TDC that trapped intake charge is compressed for a longer amount of crank degrees allowing the amount of pressure created on the compression stroke to become greater than it would have had the intake valve closed later. This raises dynamic compression.
This rise in dynamic compression offsets the added overlap and once the two are allowed to work together in harmony you get the best of both worlds. You get a cam that can pull to 7000rpm cleanly without falling off the brink of the earth power wise, while still having a cam that can pull a house off its foundation at 2000rpm(Tick Performance is not responsible for damages caused by those that attempt this act).
All of that said, when Jonathan tunes a car we've installed one of these cams in, customers love it. The drivability as the customers put it, "like stock." Now I can't speak for your tuner, but if he is willing to take the time to street tune the car, I think you will love the Stage 2 SNS cam. If he is not willing to street tune it, I'd highly recommend a custom 227/234 .614"/.612" 112+3 cam that I do for customers in the same situation. This cam has the same broad table top like torque curve that the SNS Stage 2 does, it just won't make quite the same amount of peak torque and power as the SNS Stage 2 does due to the reduction in valve overlap.
Let me know if I can be of anymore help!
As others have said though, there have been some advancements in valve-train technology since then, and I feel some improvements can always be made in terms of valve events from things that we learn along the way.
The only thing that worries me about our SNS Stage 2 with your requirements in terms of driving habits is the overlap it carries. The SNS Stage 2 cam pound for pound in terms of duration will make more power than any other cam of comparable size. This is because of it's valve overlap as Jake Fusion pointed out. Normally added valve overlap given the same duration as another cam with less overlap means less low end torque and more top end power.
This is not the case with the SNS Stage 2 and I'll explain why that is. When overlap is added in a cam profile, pumping losses become greater from the valve being held open for a longer amount of crank degrees. When pumping losses become greater and are not compensated for, low end power is lost because when the piston is moving at a lower speed, the amount of time it takes for the piston to travel from TDC to BDC is obviously greater than at a higher speed. Even though the piston takes longer to travel from TDC to BDC, the valve is open and closed for the same amount of crank degrees regardless if the piston is moving at 1,000rpm or 10,000rpm. Thus the amount of cylinder pressure lost at 1,000rpm will be greater than at 10,000rpm because the piston is traveling at a faster speed and less pressure is allowed to escape before the intake valve closes again. This is why adding overlap alone all by itself will lose low end power, but not lose top end power.
The only way to compensate this added pumping loss and loss of low end power is to add compression. Now, since the OP won't be adding any compression to his engine by way of milling his heads, thinner head gasket or a smaller combustion chamber with a different casting cylinder head, I'm sure you're wondering how this addition of compression is going to be accomplished? Alas, the earlier closing intake valve event Jake Fusion also pointed out.
When the intake valve is closed sooner, the intake charge is trapped earlier on the pistons rise to TDC. As the piston continues to move towards TDC that trapped intake charge is compressed for a longer amount of crank degrees allowing the amount of pressure created on the compression stroke to become greater than it would have had the intake valve closed later. This raises dynamic compression.
This rise in dynamic compression offsets the added overlap and once the two are allowed to work together in harmony you get the best of both worlds. You get a cam that can pull to 7000rpm cleanly without falling off the brink of the earth power wise, while still having a cam that can pull a house off its foundation at 2000rpm(Tick Performance is not responsible for damages caused by those that attempt this act).
All of that said, when Jonathan tunes a car we've installed one of these cams in, customers love it. The drivability as the customers put it, "like stock." Now I can't speak for your tuner, but if he is willing to take the time to street tune the car, I think you will love the Stage 2 SNS cam. If he is not willing to street tune it, I'd highly recommend a custom 227/234 .614"/.612" 112+3 cam that I do for customers in the same situation. This cam has the same broad table top like torque curve that the SNS Stage 2 does, it just won't make quite the same amount of peak torque and power as the SNS Stage 2 does due to the reduction in valve overlap.
Let me know if I can be of anymore help!
Last edited by Sales@Tick; 06-20-2013 at 01:59 PM.
06-20-2013, 05:27 PM
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I will say that the 228R cam is probably the standard that the "torque minded" DD cam's of the past decade were measured by as it was the first that was known for having awesome average power and kicking up dust at a stop light.
As others have said though, there have been some advancements in valve-train technology since then, and I feel some improvements can always be made in terms of valve events from things that we learn along the way.
The only thing that worries me about our SNS Stage 2 with your requirements in terms of driving habits is the overlap it carries. The SNS Stage 2 cam pound for pound in terms of duration will make more power than any other cam of comparable size. This is because of it's valve overlap as Jake Fusion pointed out. Normally added valve overlap given the same duration as another cam with less overlap means less low end torque and more top end power.
This is not the case with the SNS Stage 2 and I'll explain why that is. When overlap is added in a cam profile, pumping losses become greater from the valve being held open for a longer amount of crank degrees. When pumping losses become greater and are not compensated for, low end power is lost because when the piston is moving at a lower speed, the amount of time it takes for the piston to travel from TDC to BDC is obviously greater than at a higher speed. Even though the piston takes longer to travel from TDC to BDC, the valve is open and closed for the same amount of crank degrees regardless if the piston is moving at 1,000rpm or 10,000rpm. Thus the amount of cylinder pressure lost at 1,000rpm will be greater than at 10,000rpm because the piston is traveling at a faster speed and less pressure is allowed to escape before the intake valve closes again. This is why adding overlap alone all by itself will lose low end power, but not lose top end power.
The only way to compensate this added pumping loss and loss of low end power is to add compression. Now, since the OP won't be adding any compression to his engine by way of milling his heads, thinner head gasket or a smaller combustion chamber with a different casting cylinder head, I'm sure you're wondering how this addition of compression is going to be accomplished? Alas, the earlier closing intake valve event Jake Fusion also pointed out.
When the intake valve is closed sooner, the intake charge is trapped earlier on the pistons rise to TDC. As the piston continues to move towards TDC that trapped intake charge is compressed for a longer amount of crank degrees allowing the amount of pressure created on the compression stroke to become greater than it would have had the intake valve closed later. This raises dynamic compression.
This rise in dynamic compression offsets the added overlap and once the two are allowed to work together in harmony you get the best of both worlds. You get a cam that can pull to 7000rpm cleanly without falling off the brink of the earth power wise, while still having a cam that can pull a house off its foundation at 2000rpm(Tick Performance is not responsible for damages caused by those that attempt this act).
All of that said, when Jonathan tunes a car we've installed one of these cams in, customers love it. The drivability as the customers put it, "like stock." Now I can't speak for your tuner, but if he is willing to take the time to street tune the car, I think you will love the Stage 2 SNS cam. If he is not willing to street tune it, I'd highly recommend a custom 227/234 .614"/.612" 112+3 cam that I do for customers in the same situation. This cam has the same broad table top like torque curve that the SNS Stage 2 does, it just won't make quite the same amount of peak torque and power as the SNS Stage 2 does due to the reduction in valve overlap.
Let me know if I can be of anymore help!
As others have said though, there have been some advancements in valve-train technology since then, and I feel some improvements can always be made in terms of valve events from things that we learn along the way.
The only thing that worries me about our SNS Stage 2 with your requirements in terms of driving habits is the overlap it carries. The SNS Stage 2 cam pound for pound in terms of duration will make more power than any other cam of comparable size. This is because of it's valve overlap as Jake Fusion pointed out. Normally added valve overlap given the same duration as another cam with less overlap means less low end torque and more top end power.
This is not the case with the SNS Stage 2 and I'll explain why that is. When overlap is added in a cam profile, pumping losses become greater from the valve being held open for a longer amount of crank degrees. When pumping losses become greater and are not compensated for, low end power is lost because when the piston is moving at a lower speed, the amount of time it takes for the piston to travel from TDC to BDC is obviously greater than at a higher speed. Even though the piston takes longer to travel from TDC to BDC, the valve is open and closed for the same amount of crank degrees regardless if the piston is moving at 1,000rpm or 10,000rpm. Thus the amount of cylinder pressure lost at 1,000rpm will be greater than at 10,000rpm because the piston is traveling at a faster speed and less pressure is allowed to escape before the intake valve closes again. This is why adding overlap alone all by itself will lose low end power, but not lose top end power.
The only way to compensate this added pumping loss and loss of low end power is to add compression. Now, since the OP won't be adding any compression to his engine by way of milling his heads, thinner head gasket or a smaller combustion chamber with a different casting cylinder head, I'm sure you're wondering how this addition of compression is going to be accomplished? Alas, the earlier closing intake valve event Jake Fusion also pointed out.
When the intake valve is closed sooner, the intake charge is trapped earlier on the pistons rise to TDC. As the piston continues to move towards TDC that trapped intake charge is compressed for a longer amount of crank degrees allowing the amount of pressure created on the compression stroke to become greater than it would have had the intake valve closed later. This raises dynamic compression.
This rise in dynamic compression offsets the added overlap and once the two are allowed to work together in harmony you get the best of both worlds. You get a cam that can pull to 7000rpm cleanly without falling off the brink of the earth power wise, while still having a cam that can pull a house off its foundation at 2000rpm(Tick Performance is not responsible for damages caused by those that attempt this act).
All of that said, when Jonathan tunes a car we've installed one of these cams in, customers love it. The drivability as the customers put it, "like stock." Now I can't speak for your tuner, but if he is willing to take the time to street tune the car, I think you will love the Stage 2 SNS cam. If he is not willing to street tune it, I'd highly recommend a custom 227/234 .614"/.612" 112+3 cam that I do for customers in the same situation. This cam has the same broad table top like torque curve that the SNS Stage 2 does, it just won't make quite the same amount of peak torque and power as the SNS Stage 2 does due to the reduction in valve overlap.
Let me know if I can be of anymore help!
06-20-2013, 06:57 PM
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You'll be so sad if you don't go at least SNS Stage 2! (At least go SNS Stage 2 "Mild")
Martin is the "Go To" guy for cam selection. He interacts with the customer more than any one else I've ever seen, and carries a wealthy amount of knowledge that he isn't afraid to share!
I have the SNS Stage 2, and I currently reside in CA. Traffic doesn't get any worse! You'd be surprised how well that cam can be tuned.
Good Luck!
Martin is the "Go To" guy for cam selection. He interacts with the customer more than any one else I've ever seen, and carries a wealthy amount of knowledge that he isn't afraid to share!
I have the SNS Stage 2, and I currently reside in CA. Traffic doesn't get any worse! You'd be surprised how well that cam can be tuned.
Good Luck!
06-20-2013, 08:37 PM
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You'll be so sad if you don't go at least SNS Stage 2! (At least go SNS Stage 2 "Mild")
Martin is the "Go To" guy for cam selection. He interacts with the customer more than any one else I've ever seen, and carries a wealthy amount of knowledge that he isn't afraid to share!
I have the SNS Stage 2, and I currently reside in CA. Traffic doesn't get any worse! You'd be surprised how well that cam can be tuned.
Good Luck!
Martin is the "Go To" guy for cam selection. He interacts with the customer more than any one else I've ever seen, and carries a wealthy amount of knowledge that he isn't afraid to share!
I have the SNS Stage 2, and I currently reside in CA. Traffic doesn't get any worse! You'd be surprised how well that cam can be tuned.
Good Luck!
06-20-2013, 08:52 PM
#20
This rise in dynamic compression offsets the added overlap and once the two are allowed to work together in harmony you get the best of both worlds. You get a cam that can pull to 7000rpm cleanly without falling off the brink of the earth power wise, while still having a cam that can pull a house off its foundation at 2000rpm(Tick Performance is not responsible for damages caused by those that attempt this act).
What about a DCR when having 20+ degrees of overlap?