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245cc heads on 347

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Old 08-11-2013, 06:29 AM
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I'm still in talks with Ed, but for a short term plan, those LS3 small bores from Mast are something I've brought up with him. Mast makes power. Period.
Old 08-11-2013, 07:44 AM
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I posted on YB and no one hardly commented!! Haha
Old 08-11-2013, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by JakeFusion™
Rectangle port heads have a different CSA.

CSA is what matters. Not port volume. That's why the Lingenfelter heads do well with their 250cc port and 2.08" valves on stock LS1s. Hell, their flow numbers are atrocious as well but they make power and torque.

CSA = cross-sectional area. You can make power and torque with a big port if it keeps velocity up.
Jake, I get this, and this is the reason the LS3/LS7 cams typically have a wide split in duration I believe. I really think more results of small bore LS3's will show they produce serious power w/ small bores like cathedrals. The new LT1's are using an almost square port, and a serious short turn radius and flow stock better than a ported cathedral. It's going to be awesome to see the results produced from the Gen V.

Originally Posted by Ed Curtis

In a word Christian - no.

Remember the grief we both took from the "gurus" on here with your original LS6 combination? Blew up a lot of the internet folklore with your results so no, I won't be doing any explaining of anything on here. Besides, there is Speedtalk and YellowBullet for unfiltered information.


Ed, it'd sure would be great. I don't know what "grief" you received from these said guru's but for those of us not around then, we could use some teaching...

Originally Posted by dr_whigham
I'm still in talks with Ed, but for a short term plan, those LS3 small bores from Mast are something I've brought up with him. Mast makes power. Period.
Dr. Whigham, this is my point exactly. Mast makes nothing that's just Ok. Everything they make is high quality and produces power. It's dang expensive too, but they obviously believe the Gen IV port design is superior to Gen III.


Originally Posted by sprayedenali
I posted on YB and no one hardly commented!! Haha
Glad you made it out alive! The YB can chew people up whole!
Old 08-11-2013, 08:52 AM
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OP, my apologies, I took this off the main topic, I went that way, b/c with the 245's port velocity and CSA will both be the main issues of that port on the small bore, just like the small bore LS3's.
Old 08-11-2013, 10:10 AM
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Not a problem, it's a good conversation!
Old 08-11-2013, 05:05 PM
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Ok, so I've been on this worm hole all day since its 102* out today, and outdoor activities can lead to bad times...

Here are a couple of articles/tech tips that I've looked over today.

The first, is from Chevy high performance. It's an old article (not too old), but provides great insight in the wonder of cylinder head design.

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...n/viewall.html

The second is actually off of Reher Morrison's site.
It's their Buying cylinder heads tips and it has GREAT insight! After looking it over read note at the bottom and read their tech talk #6,16, and 70. They are great. Also, everyone of their tech talk blog post are awesome. Insight to making ultimate power!

http://rehermorrison.com/product/buy...tips-and-info/
Old 08-11-2013, 10:15 PM
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Grab your purses and your babies, Ed's back...
Old 09-14-2013, 06:14 PM
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What cam do you think would work well with these small bore heads? I am running the bsp small bores and I just randomly tried a 230/238 cam and it doesn't pull as hard as the 224/230 cam I had in there prior.

Seems smaller cam is the way to go, but curious what the gurus think.
Old 09-14-2013, 07:20 PM
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I suggested a 222/234 111+4 in the BSP thread. I use that cam in G8's and 5th Gen Camaro's for guys that want a strong powerband across the board and great torque.

These large intake port volumes/valves do not need near the intake duration as the smaller port volumes of a cathedral port head. They do like exhaust duration though and contrary to internet belief the square port heads like overlap.
Old 09-14-2013, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Martin@Tick
I suggested a 222/234 111+4 in the BSP thread. I use that cam in G8's and 5th Gen Camaro's for guys that want a strong powerband across the board and great torque.

These large intake port volumes/valves do not need near the intake duration as the smaller port volumes of a cathedral port head. They do like exhaust duration though and contrary to internet belief the square port heads like overlap.
Martin, overlap is loved by ALL LS heads correct? Give 'em some overlap, with a side of compression, and you have a full plate of POWER!
Old 09-15-2013, 03:04 AM
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Originally Posted by 427zm
Martin, overlap is loved by ALL LS heads correct? Give 'em some overlap, with a side of compression, and you have a full plate of POWER!
To an extent. You must look at many different things to determine exactly how much overlap a cylinder head wants. Many times though that information isn't given to a person like myself or cannot be provided because the customer doesn't know it themselves.
Old 09-15-2013, 09:00 PM
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Thanks 427zm...those are some good reads. In fact the very first point RMS
made was clearance of the valve to the bore (one of the guys in the other
read said the In. was more important than the Ex.) so even though the OPs
heads would fit and could be made to work for an elevated rpm application, I
still can't see the 2.08 valve filling the cylinder without undue turbulance
which could lessen the BSFC. The new LT1 engine changes everything since
with direct injection the fuel atomization is nearly perfect at all times and
now the runner no longer needs to have tumble and swirl to promote mix-
ture homogeneaity. A whole new animal that freaks like Martin get to play
with and tweak like needle junkies......
Old 09-15-2013, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Martin@Tick
I suggested a 222/234 111+4 in the BSP thread. I use that cam in G8's and 5th Gen Camaro's for guys that want a strong powerband across the board and great torque.

These large intake port volumes/valves do not need near the intake duration as the smaller port volumes of a cathedral port head. They do like exhaust duration though and contrary to internet belief the square port heads like overlap.
Thanks Martin!

would this be the custom cam option on your site?

How far can this cam carry the power? In my setup I am able to spin as high as 7200, but generally speaking, I only spin that high through the traps so I can stay in 3rd. Otherwise I shift around 6800.
Old 09-15-2013, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by A.R. Shale Targa
Thanks 427zm...those are some good reads. In fact the very first point RMS
made was clearance of the valve to the bore (one of the guys in the other
read said the In. was more important than the Ex.) so even though the OPs
heads would fit and could be made to work for an elevated rpm application, I
still can't see the 2.08 valve filling the cylinder without undue turbulance
which could lessen the BSFC. The new LT1 engine changes everything since
with direct injection the fuel atomization is nearly perfect at all times and
now the runner no longer needs to have tumble and swirl to promote mix-
ture homogeneaity. A whole new animal that freaks like Martin get to play
with and tweak like needle junkies......
Not a problem at all. I now have a passion for finding the optimal setup for an engine. The RMS blog is serious stuff and is great "fundamentals" for all things big power engine. I do look forward to seeing what Mr. Smallwood, Mr. Curtis, Mr. G, and Mr. Morgan (of Reher) come up with for the LT1. NASCAR style heads. Its gonna be crazy power....
Old 09-15-2013, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by mchicia1
Thanks Martin!

would this be the custom cam option on your site?

How far can this cam carry the power? In my setup I am able to spin as high as 7200, but generally speaking, I only spin that high through the traps so I can stay in 3rd. Otherwise I shift around 6800.
Yes it would be a custom camshaft. I can grind it on several different combinations of lobes as well to match what you would like out of the valve train.

I would expect a 4600-4800rpm torque peak and a 6200-6400rpm horsepower peak with your cylinder heads and intake manifold combination. With the exhaust events the camshaft has, it should carry power to well over 6600-6800rpm.

With the size of the port and valve, the power will carry far into the RPM range after it peaks due to the exhaust opening of the camshaft versus the intake valve closing. I wouldn't see any reason why it wouldn't possibly even carry to 7000rpm.
Old 09-15-2013, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Martin@Tick
Yes it would be a custom camshaft. I can grind it on several different combinations of lobes as well to match what you would like out of the valve train.

I would expect a 4600-4800rpm torque peak and a 6200-6400rpm horsepower peak with your cylinder heads and intake manifold combination. With the exhaust events the camshaft has, it should carry power to well over 6600-6800rpm.

With the size of the port and valve, the power will carry far into the RPM range after it peaks due to the exhaust opening of the camshaft versus the intake valve closing. I wouldn't see any reason why it wouldn't possibly even carry to 7000rpm.
Thanks a lot for the detailed responses.
Old 09-18-2013, 11:04 AM
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Not a problem. If you would like to try that cam out give me a call and we'll get it ordered.
Old 09-18-2013, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by mchicia1
What cam do you think would work well with these small bore heads? I am running the bsp small bores and I just randomly tried a 230/238 cam and it doesn't pull as hard as the 224/230 cam I had in there prior.

Seems smaller cam is the way to go, but curious what the gurus think.
Did you get them milled any, running a thinner head gasket or what is your static compression? The larger cam didn't help your DCR and the larger ports have shown to be lazier down low (<3k rpm) than a cathedral all other things equal. What were the torque differences on the dyno?
Old 09-18-2013, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by SNLPerformance
Did you get them milled any, running a thinner head gasket or what is your static compression? The larger cam didn't help your DCR and the larger ports have shown to be lazier down low (<3k rpm) than a cathedral all other things equal. What were the torque differences on the dyno?
Yeah I milled them .030" and I am running a .040" cometic. ~10.4:1 compression.

I didn't save the graph, but it picked up 40 ft/lbs pretty much everywhere, but that was with the 224/230 cam. I did not re dyno with the bigger cam. I got no track times with the smaller cam either, so I can't compare.
Old 09-26-2013, 08:36 AM
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I ran a 250+cc port on a 383 LT1 with a middle of the road solid roller and a 7000 rpm limit.

I got the same crap from everyone, it will be a dog, heads too big, too much cam, can't drive that on the street...the whole line of crap.

Car ran 10.50's@126 mph with a 4.11 gear and a 3500 converter in a 3600lb car on pumpgas.....guessing about 585 hp or so.

Put some compression in the car to help it's torque and run the head, don't listen to all the regurgitated internet rhetoric.



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