Guide to Hydraulic Valvetrain - Page 2 - LS1TECH - Camaro and Firebird Forum Discussion



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Guide to Hydraulic Valvetrain

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Old 11-04-2014, 07:53 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squalor View Post
https://ls1tech.com/forums/advanced-engineering-tech/394940-those-who-want-big-nasty-cams-lots-lift-etc.html

My how times have changed. That thread made me think Beehives were the "Bee's Knees" and when I saw Predator-Z used PSI 1511ML springs on a cam with 238 XFI intake and 236 XE-R exhaust, I wanted them too.
Reading this, his engine should have never survived a dyno tune.

Bee Healthy, Eat Your Honey (and buy duals) ?

How can both threads be right ? Something is not adding up for me here.
Like Tony said, there's no right or wrong. Each style of spring has its advantages and will produce different results for different applications. If you have a 125g valve and you want to turn 7500RPM, a beehive with 318lbs open load probably won't cut it. A dual spring with 318lbs probably wouldn't cut it either.

What he's saying is that if you have a spring failure, due to either a bad spring or just operator/installer error, the beehive probably won't be able to keep the valve from dropping. Having dual springs is a nice little CYA in case you're one of the unlucky few.

What's interested me about the conical spring is that is has spring pressure pressure similar to the duals, but it is much lighter and has essentially no natural frequency.
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Old 11-04-2014, 04:01 PM   #22
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The threads are not at odds with one another. You still have to take weight and harmonics into consideration. That's all I'm saying. The lighter the components on the valve side the better. Which is why I run Ti retainers. Every little bit helps.

The lighter the valvetrain and the less violent the cam lobe, the higher the likelihood of a beehive or conical single working well for you.

And a dual doesn't ensure the valve won't drop, but it does make it less likely in the event of a failure.
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Old 11-04-2014, 07:10 PM   #23
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Tony,

I agree 100% with your reasoning, in fact I tell customers the same thing regarding, "If the spring breaks, you're going to be left high and dry."

I just wanted to have a little fun with some play on words since you had your turn to do so as well! LOL

The respect is mutual as well my friend. Nothing but respect over here for the work that you do and your knowledge in general regarding airflow and valve train components.

Good luck on your new endeavor and business as well Tony!
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Old 11-05-2014, 07:17 PM   #24
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Quote:
The threads are not at odds with one another
After re-reading I see that now. Neither you or Tony deny what J-Rod's post says about the benefits of a Beehive spring or why they work. I'm sorry if I came off as combative. As Tony said, "Sometimes there is no "tonality" in posts and things can come across harsher than intended at best....."

I don't want to fubar your post with a Beehive vs Duals debate. Would you agree that the closer the piston to valve clearance is, the less "CYA" a dual spring would provide ?
Where can I buy Conical duals ?
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Old 11-07-2014, 04:08 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squalor View Post
After re-reading I see that now. Neither you or Tony deny what J-Rod's post says about the benefits of a Beehive spring or why they work. I'm sorry if I came off as combative. As Tony said, "Sometimes there is no "tonality" in posts and things can come across harsher than intended at best....."

I don't want to fubar your post with a Beehive vs Duals debate. Would you agree that the closer the piston to valve clearance is, the less "CYA" a dual spring would provide ?
Where can I buy Conical duals ?
If a valve drops, it's going to drop a lot more than .080"-.100".

In that case, having the largest amount of P to V in the world still wouldn't save you.

IMO the tighter the P to V the more control in the valve train you'd need and want. IMO that would mean a dual spring should be employed.
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Old 11-09-2014, 06:41 PM   #26
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My 2 cents. Safety first = Dual springs.
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Old 11-09-2014, 11:15 PM   #27
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Would you still use duals on a cam that was designed to be for use with LS6 springs like the HOT cam or one of the BTR truck cams. Also at what point do you suggest using $4-700 aftermarket lifters over $100 LS7 lifters.
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Old 11-10-2014, 10:00 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fry_ View Post
Would you still use duals on a cam that was designed to be for use with LS6 springs like the HOT cam or one of the BTR truck cams. Also at what point do you suggest using $4-700 aftermarket lifters over $100 LS7 lifters.
I have a thread going about lifters if anybody cares to reply in it. I would like this question answered there as well so that information would be easily found with a google search.
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Old 03-12-2015, 08:55 PM   #29
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what about the valve springs
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Old 03-18-2015, 07:45 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jshelby View Post
what about the valve springs
Brian Tooley Racing Platinum duals seems to be the answer to this question most of the time.

Can we talk about locks ? I realize the locks must match the retainers in degree. Are super 7 locks or 10 degree locks worth changing retainers over ? If I go with PSI beehives and re-use my stock retainers are Comp machined locks that much better than OEM stamped locks ?
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Old 03-22-2015, 10:47 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squalor View Post
Brian Tooley Racing Platinum duals seems to be the answer to this question most of the time.

Can we talk about locks ? I realize the locks must match the retainers in degree. Are super 7 locks or 10 degree locks worth changing retainers over ? If I go with PSI beehives and re-use my stock retainers are Comp machined locks that much better than OEM stamped locks ?
The OEM locks should be fine for hydraulic roller stuff, I've never had an issue with them.

Once you get into solid rollers and high RPM, then it may be worth changing. Sometimes you need different locks because of the valve stem OD or the groove in the valve is different.
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Old 05-27-2015, 12:00 PM   #32
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I found a list of valve train weights that Brian Tooley made in 2004. Many items are still being manufactured without changes. I hope we can update the list with the items manufactured by REV and the newer LSx valves and hardware.

Manufacturer Part # Part type Diameter Length Stem Dia. Material Weight(in grams)


Del West Exhaust valve 1.600 5.040 0.311 Titanium 62.3
GM Z06 Exh valve 1.550 8mm 64.6
Ferrea F6232 Exhaust valve 1.550 8mm 86.2
Ferrea F1021P Exhaust valve 1.600 8mm 86.2
GM Stock exh valve 87.3
Ferrea F1893P 94.6
Ferrea F6267 Exhaust valve 1.600 0.100 96.0
Ferrea F6235 Exhaust valve 1.600 8mm 97.6
Ferrea F1892P Exhaust valve 1.600 8mm 98.9

Del West Intake valve 2.055 5.040 0.311 Titanium 73.3
GM Z06 Int valve 2.000 8mm 74.7
Ferrea F1022P Intake valve 8mm 100.6
GM Stock int valve 2.000 8mm 101.1
Ferrea F1043P Intake valve 2.050 8mm 103.7
Ferrea F6231 Intake valve 8mm 108.8
Ferrea F6234 Intake valve 8mm 112.4
Ferrea F6268 Intake valve 2.080 0.100 8mm 113.4

GM Stock locks 2.5g
Comp 7 deg locks 3.2g
Comp CC 611 10 deg 11/32 locks 6.1g
Comp CC 614 10 deg 5/16 locks 6.6g
Manley 13151-8 10 deg Bead lock 7.1g

Ferrea S10048 1.260 Single Spring 77.6g
GM 03' Z06 Spring 77.3g
Comp CC 918 Single spring 73.1g
Comp CC 987 1.440 Dual Spring 119.3

Comp CC 772 Stock Dia Tit Ret
(918) 7.2
Ferrea E11020 Double Tit Ret 9.4
Comp 1.250 Tit Ret 10.7
GM Stock LS1/LS6 ret 11.3
Victory 1.550 Tit Ret 14.2
Comp CC 730 1.440 Tit Ret 15.9
Comp CC 776 1.440 Tit Ret 16.4
Comp 1.550 Tit Ret 20.2
Comp CC 749 1.550 Chromoly Ret 35.2
Comp 1772-16 Light Weight Tool Steel Beehive Retainer 7g
BTR steel retainer (13.7g) with stock locks 16.2g
LS3 hollow stem intake valve (turned down to 2.04") 83 gr
LS7 Hollow Exhaust Valve 74 gram
Manley Hollow stem 11362H-8, 2.02 intake 93gr
Manley Hollow stem 11361-8, 1.550 exhaust 87gr

Last edited by squalor; 05-27-2015 at 12:13 PM. Reason: added info
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Old 07-25-2016, 10:43 PM   #33
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I just dropped a valve from a broken beehive spring, luckily it was at low rpm but I'm replacing whole top end and having heads repaired. This is a great thread for me thx
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Old 07-26-2016, 07:58 AM   #34
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What kind of beehive?
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Old 07-26-2016, 08:33 AM   #35
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I was told it's a 918, builder who did the engine said it was one of the problem springs from comp. I then called comp and they told me the problem springs have a blue line down them?? Motor only made it thru dyno time and about 5 hours in my sand car and then disaster.
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Old 07-26-2016, 01:00 PM   #36
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Don't use cheap springs. So many do and they are the life of a push rod motor.
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Old 07-26-2016, 01:10 PM   #37
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I didn't choose them, I bought the motor freshly rebuilt and that's why the dummy builder chose, he then did not stand behind any of his work. Oh well
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