Still have the e-mail from Phil when I was deciding between the Dart/RHS heads and the ported 232cc heads. Copied and pasted exactly what he sent me:


The Dart head has a more efficient chamber design & exhaust port. In theory with all things being equal, it will be up 10-15 over our 232 GM. However, you must keep in mind that your individual set-up may make more or less depending on your inlet/exhaust setup as well as tuning. Most times the used cores are fine. It is rare we see cores that have been butchered up or need bolt hole thread repair.

Advanced Induction CHD
6841 Belt Road
Concord, NC 28027

 

^That was awhile ago though. Im pretty sure MJS got that response rather recently and it makes sense if the Darts went up in price. No ones knocking your Darts but didnt you not have the best numbers with your setup?

 

He may have meant the additional cost for the Dart/RHS castings isn't worth it, but that's really up to the individual. If the OP does not already have 243/799 heads, then add that to the cost. Like I've stated in numerous threads, the dyno I was on reads low. Lots of other heads/cam cars have been on that dyno and the readings were lower, and several stock GTO's as well, and all produced lower than typical numbers. I will be putting the car on a different dyno during a dyno day, and also running it at the track for true numbers.

 

Everyone's dyno reads low.

 

I said that the other day, got kinda flamed for it. But I agree with you.

 

Yeah that was probably me and it came off a bit "brash" after rereading it several times. Sometimes I forget spoken diction doesn't come through in text. At all.

I see what jake is saying. I agree "to a point" if someone is just throwing a 228 with .080 wall 5/16 PR's, new OE lifters and upgraded rockers.

I still think an old ETP, or Mast 215 cathedral is about the most potent head for a 346. You have to throw CC's out the window to an extent. With relocated valves and valve angle, it's all about CSA.

Tony's stuff works well for several reasons, with one being a lot of people that buy his heads LISTEN to him and optimize the setup, going with his recommendations and all for everything.

And to a comment earlier about my setup with the AFR 205's, I think a lot of it was luck that the cam I had still worked with those heads, but a lot of it was also measuring damn near EVERYTHING, shimming, and just plain ole being thorough. My only regret was not using a Cometic .040 gasket.

Make no mistake though. Even though that 205 was box stock and NOW, an older design, they're frickin nasty in their own right. Plenty of folks go fast and put over 500 to the ground through them.

Getting a bit sidetracked here but to the OP, if you can afford it, I'd go aftermarket head 10 out of 10 times. Greater potential down the road for what you may want to do down the road.

 

Dr. Whigam's setup made such good power because he used AFR heads, and while the cam he used wasn't what Tony Mamo would suggest using, another cam guru named Ed Curtis knew that cam with the AFR 205cc heads would put down killer numbers. Newsflash LS1tech: Not all cam gurus think the same way. If I recall, it was for that reason that Ed Curtis got banned from this site, which is a god damn shame. You can talk to Tony Mamo and then talk to Ed Curtis, and you are going to get two totally different philosophies on specing a cam. Does that mean one guy is right and the other is wrong, no. If you do your due diligence and search on here, you'll see that both guy's cams make killer power, and yes, even with the same AFR heads that Tony says you have to have something with less duration and a higher LSA. I'm pretty sure Ed proved that doesn't have to be the case. Just look at Dave's cam, and all the other idiots out there running the Gx series cams from LG.

 

Idiots running gx cams? Not a good cam? I thought that was a proven one?

 

Looks like I'm going with some as cast TFS 220 with hand blending and PM guides and matched 102... was looking at the g6x3 while it's in my 346. I'll go custom once the 402 is done. What cam and head gaskets do y'all recommend for good quench. And milling for a 11.5... still on pump 91.

 

I didn't mean it the way you're taking it. What I meant was that in the eyes of some, they are idiots for running one of those cams that in no way shape or form would make power with those AFR heads, when in all actuality, some of the highest HP combos that have AFR heads have been with a LG Gx cam.

I am a fan of the higher duration and lower LSA cams, much like the cam that the Dr. runs, as well as the LG Gx cams.

 

The higher duration, tighter LSA cams don't drive as well, but make more violent power and don't need as much compression to make power.

The lower duration, longer LSA are more mellow and have a broader power curve and needs more compression.

It's sort of what you want kind of deal.

As for gaskets - Cometic .040s.

 

The difference isnt so much in the peak number they make.....its the shape of the power curve but most importantly HOW THEY DRIVE

The approach I traditionally take to designing cams is such that they make big power, carry extremely well past peak (which I personally value high) and also idle reasonably well and dont lug and chug under 1600 RPM. At the end of the day you want to enjoy driving the car and a big duration stick with a narrow-ish lobe sep is a chore to drive long term....its gets old quickly. Also, if you value fuel economy at all, the approach I take will add to that as well.

But you are correct....there are lots of different theories and approach to cam design, but you need to look at the big picture and the smaller details to see which one overall suits your particular driving style. I have strayed a bit from my typical formula with some folks only because during the conversation they indicated to me certain attributes of the engine they were after so I dont have a go to approach that I use every time.....its just that most of the time guys want the car to drive reasonably well....especially when I inform them there doesnt really have to be a big penalty in peak power.....only midrange torque will suffer to a very modest extent (but the lines ultimately cross and the torque curve will carry better and stronger into the higher RPM).

Regarding engine performance as it relates to cam design I find that I care about a few things....is the the car reasonably enjoyable and fun to drive....does it have an adequate amount of low/midrange torque to squirt around part throttle on the street, and will it rip my face off when I side step the clutch at 5K and let it rip to 7K (not falling on its face past 6500). If it can do all that, any other parts of the power delivery I'm not particularly interested in unless my customer (or his application) guides me differently. A road race car comes to mind where it would be important to have a stronger midrange drive at the expense of some peak power....mainly to launch that car out of the corner and down the straight to the next one....in a short or even medium length road course, stronger power in the middle usually trumps peak power, but in a longer course you have to manage both pretty well. Street and drag stuff is all power related.....its just up to the driver to get the RPM up where it needs to be quickly and keep it there via the right gear selection in a manual or a converter in an automatic application.

Horsepower, and more importantly average power over your typical target RPM, is the key to going fast....its the only thing that matters when discussing acceleration (weight is the other key thing). So if you can build a combo that makes big power and is still fun to drive without all the crappy trade-offs associated with a cam that has too much overlap (alot of you guys have been there)....then life is good.

-Tony

Funny you say that....I was thinking red would look badazz on my silver Vette.....LOL

 

You weren't wrong, you know a lot more about the LS game than me. It's why I'm constantly reading everything. I hope no one takes my replies like I'm being a smart *** or anything. There's a plethora of knowledge on this site, I just try to balance it all out and use those same tid bits on my personal car (because what good is saying something if you don't practice it yourself?). I ran AFR 165's on my 95' cobra and that little motor put a hurting on a lot of people, if I could run them on my C5 i would, but I have to pay for Physicians Assistant school as well, so I picked up decent parts for a great price. No my combo isn't spec'd out, no I didn't contact Martin at tick (even though their MC is going in the car), I did get a cam motion core cam, I did upgrade to morel lifters, I did pay for TEA Ls6 heads, etc...my point being, I took a bit of knowledge out of what every big influence company/spokesperson on the board, and used it on my build. I'd gladly give Tony Mamo my money or go with a LLSR from cam motion if I could afford it (or maybe a LLSR with AFR heads?). I enjoy threads like this, people who question the normal, we need that in a community that strives for the best parts and best performance out of their cars. We know what works, lent not try other things as well. /end rant

 

I agree. Good post. Spitting image of me a few years back... My car was damn near built by the classifieds

That's what it's all about. Deciphering the BS and seeing what's proven.

Outside the box thinking is what REALLY intrigues me. That's why I went Mast small bore LS3 heads, and more than likely a Cam Motion solid roller.

 

Everyone worries about the peak #'s instead of #'s under the curve and how it will drive. I made that mistake when I had my 05gto M6. Big cam with great peak #'s but it was a dog below 3000 rpms and was horrible to drive. I will never make that mistake again.

 

OP when using those as cast TFS 220 go with the PM guides and shim your rocker arm stands up if using stock rockers. After milling my heads and Cometic .040 head gaskets I had to shim mine .090 to get the rocker arm geometry correct. I just took some use stands and milled them down to what I needed, but I think you can buy them already machined. I also used a Vengeance Racing VRX3 Camshaft-226/228 .585/.588 114+4 on a 347 displacement engine.

 

Amen....and the point I was trying to drive home in my earlier post is you can approach the camshaft design in such a way alot of the trade-offs with a big cam become much more muted....taking that approach and maybe backing off that peak number just a bit will yield a cam that becomes a pleasure to drive and still punches solid numbers everywhere.

My old 224/228 cam in the stock Vette shortblock was proof of that....the better the heads and the overall execution of the combination, the less you need a big cam to punch the number. While I could have made 490-500 RWHP with a cam some 10 degrees larger, I would have compromised the entire "daily driver" type of drivability that I achieved with the smaller cam. Today with the more modern lobe designs I would have built the same thing with a tad more cam in it and still hit a really great compromise of awesome drivability while punching an even bigger peak number.

Good stuff....

-Tony

 

Those heads look good, Tony. You'd recommend something like a 227/231 114+1 or so with them? Or maybe something like what Martin has been spec'ing lately 235/238 LSL/XE 113+3 or so?

Btw, 16 degrees of overlap is okay for me. Very streetable.

 

I have a 402 with 23?-24? cam in it with a fast 92 intake and t/b with the afr 205 milled to 59cc and I can tell you that the hp power is nice and everywhere but what I love most is the torque. The car is a auto and will pen you back at any speed any rpm even with out having to down shift. Why, because of all the Torque that they make with the smaller heads. If you take the time to match your heads with the right cam for those heads and in my case the right stall your car is going to run fast . For me I wanted something more then just fast I wanted to be able to drive the car around anywhere and enjoy it everywhere. The combo that I have with the heads and cam give me that. Just in case people may say "well thats fine and all but I bet his car doesn't make a high hp number " well maybe your right but for me 500+ hp AND 500+ torque n/a through a auto is more then enough on the street is not as easy to do as you may think. I daily drove my car everyday for 2 years until just 4 weeks ago and bought a daily, not because I didn't enjoy it anymore but because I wanted to start putting all those work miles on another car and save my t/a from it.

 

Sorry to ramble on but I just fill way to many times to many people get caught up in the high horse power number and pick the biggest set of heads and or the biggest cam out there with out thinking first if that would be the best combo for the car to make the most usable power is all. Or maybe this week has just been to long and I needed to vent some lol Sorry guys