Hey guys... I'm close to purchasing some new heads. I currently have a 346 in the car but it will be getting a 402 in the future... With a G6x3(ish) cam... I am torn between the TEA TFS 225 (which you need $600 rockers for) or the AFR 230v2's... I want a big boy head for some bigger NA power. And I'll most likely be going to Tooley for the cam.

What do you guys think??

 

Or you can run the TEA TFS 225s with PM guides and stock rockers... for $150 upgrade.

Top Cathedral port heads for a 346? This would be my order:

Frankenstein TFS heads (he has a program for the 5.7)
Mamofied AFR 230s
TFS 215s (better design than the 225s especially on the 5.7)
Larry Meaux Hand Ported LS6
TEA Stage 2 LS6
PRC 227s
Ai 232s
Ed Curtis Hand Ported LS6
WCCH Stage 2 LS6

 

Tsp 247

 

You can't go wrong with AFR's, They make some great heads but I'm partial to them because I have a set sitting on the shelf waiting to get put back on the engine. Mine were on a 408 with a 671 blower so I can't comment on NA performance.

 

Just trying to take this a step further guys...

https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...43-s-here.html

 

Honestly, you're not going to see a big jump on the 346 from the Livernois heads. At most 5-10HP with any of the heads I listed. It comes down to the cam, intake manifold, and the bore size. All those end up working against you to put any real distance on the heads you have.

The Livernois heads are very good overall heads. I left them off accidentally. But I seriously considered them when I was planning my build.

 

You need to put the AI Dart/RHS heads above the AI 232cc 243/799 heads and the TEA ported 243/799 heads. Phil himself said they are worth 10 to 15 more rwhp because of the superior chamber design.

 

If he can prove that, I'd do it. I very much doubt it to be the case, however.

He has a run of very mediocre results in the dyno section that last year and a half. I'm not a fan of AI or of Phil's attitude at this point. The repeatability is not there for his heads.

 

Well as you can see I had very good results with them... and with everything I had hairline valve kisses on all the cylinders, oops. As I mentioned, I'll be making the move to a 402 in the future. I'm wanting something that I can run on the 346 for now but will also let a 402 breathe... I wouldn't do the 230/230 again... it was a very good cam but I put a vengeance 92 on and it gained me 8rw at the top 800rpm, and we chalked it up to the cam. Could I do say something along the lines of a G6x3 or tooleys 235/244 with the head in question, then when the 402 is done mill them down with some man compression and make my E85 switch?

 

And on the TFS stock rocker PM guide deal... I though it had to do with valve angle and geometry? It'd be a band aid right?

 

If you want the 402, something like a 239/247 or 243/251 would be better and streetable. But you could go bigger and run a 247/255 or the like.

The 243/251 would be a good cam for a 402 tho.

And if you go 402, I'd run the Frankenstein TFS 235s or step up to LS3s.

And for the PM guides: The rocker arm geometry is a bit off with the TFS heads, but it works when using the PM guides. Just don't crazy on the valve lift.

 

4.0" Bore or smaller I would put the soon to be released
Mamo Motorsports 220 in the top 3 for consideration, they would
Be my choice on a small bore 347,383, even on a 402
(if MAMOFIED) LOL.

 

Well it'd be an LS2 based 402 with a 4" crank... so yes still a smaller bore you could say. What's that? .010 over? Any who... I looked at mamo website and nada.

 

347" 231/235 114+3
383" 237/241
402" 243/247

Cathedral Heads with good exhaust/intake flow ratios only need
4-6* split for NA up to ~6500 rpm
Obviously my .02
I would definitely get EPS cam for quality and stability
And have Tony, Pat, or Geoff spec the valve events.

 

Mamo is too busy working on cylinder heads and handling customers (not to mention building the new shop, installing a chassis dyno, etc. etc.....LOL). Unfortunately updating the website is far down on the list!

New MMS 220 head is close....might have one off the CNC in a few days.....the logo is finished for the most part and we tested it on a mock up piece of aluminum



LOTS to do.....I thought I was working 24-7 before I left AFR.....this is the real deal. Besides eating and sleeping occasionally I'm going WOT.

Anyway....I will post detailed pics of the new 220 program and provide flow numbers as well but these will be real world numbers so dont expect a bunch of craziness there. I post what other shops with access to a flow bench can actually back up. Consider this....the AFR 205 (or even the V2 210 head) both only flowed around 300 CFM (real world) and that's what AFR advertised but as anyone who has been on this board more than a year can attest to, they always ran really well....very strong in fact with a well thought out combination complimenting them. The reality is an honest 300 CFM head with good efficiency and an adequate exhaust port (75% or better) can actually make around 600 HP at the crank (2 HP per CFM). I expect the new 220's to flow a legit 15-20 better with only a modest increase in CSA and port volume and strong low and midlift flow to really help fill the cylinder. Most ported OEM castings struggle to see 290-300 CFM on my bench....that's a fact....and the typical port volume is 230+ ccs. Hell I made 475 - 480 RWHP in 2004 with a stock AFR 205 head and a 224/228 mild cam but it was a very optimized package and I did enough parts swapping at the time to really dial it in (moving cam timing, header swaps, porting intakes, clutch swaps, etc.).

OP, that brings me to my next direction of thought concerning your post....combination is more important than the ultimate head. There is much more involved than just picking a great set of heads, but that if course is an awesome start as the heads are the foundation and cornerstone of EVERY serious build....if you don't have a really efficient high flowing set of heads, time spent on everything else wont be as fruitful or productive.

Guys....sorry I haven't posted much lately.....just have had alot on my plate and I don't anticipate that changing anytime soon.

Look for a thread I will start with more info on the 220's by the close of next week or sooner.....hopefully the latter.

OP....would love to help you design a package around them....feel free to contact me via PM or phone and we can discuss it in more detail

Regards,
Tony

 

You mean you have time to eat and sleep LOL?

 

Logo needs to be more flashy with color . Look forward to seeing the results and thanks for not forgetting about us 5.7 guys!!

 

Phil is not the only guy who's a fan of those Dart/RHS castings. Mr. Ed Curtis is as well. Ed, at one time, had a CNC program for the Dart heads; not sure if he still does, but I'd bet he still does. Go read over on the GTO forums regarding what he thinks of the Dart castings when they are put in the right hands. Furthermore, go check out some of the great numbers and ET's that have been put down with those heads and Ed's cams. And you want to talk about repeatability, give me a break. I've seen AFR and TFS headed combos make ****. I've also seen PRC headed combos, TEA headed combos, and yes, even AI headed combos not make what you think they should. Is it the combination of parts, or is it simply the dyno they were on? Everyone wants to go solely off dyno numbers, which is not the right way to go about doing it. Same exact car on dyno "A" may put down 465 rwhp and then on dyno "B" only make 408 rwhp. I really don't know what it is you have against Phil and AI, so please elaborate.

https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...s-great-s.html

https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...ts-inside.html

http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/archive.../t-231495.html


Here are some pics of hand ported Dart heads by Ed Curtis.

http://s137.photobucket.com/user/EDC...?sort=3&page=1

 

I never said the Dart castings aren't any good. I even put an AI head in my list. I don't think there's that much of a difference between a ported 243 or aftermarket casting. Period. Not on a 346.

I've made it known in the past I don't like dealing with Phil in the manner he prefers to deal with customers. I was once very close to buying from him and decided not to. I have no reason to recommend him after, I myself, decided to pass on his options. That's not how I roll. It doesn't mean he doesn't produce things that can be good, but that's not the point. I never recommend anything I would never myself run. There are products on my car I'd never recommend to anyone after dealing with the **** of installing them or making them work correctly. It doesn't take much to figure it out if you look in the subforums. I'll pretty vocal about why I like something (mainly because I swapped it for something else and netted better results or easier install, etc).

 

Phil at AI told me that the price of the Darts have gone up and that ported 243/799 heads are the better option form a cost/performance stand point.