Lifter Shootout which lifter and why? Everyone's opinions welcome
05-06-2015, 10:41 PM
#84
Many thanks to all posters in this thread for lots of really good info and discussion, particular mention to Redbird for his research and info, Chris Straub and especially to Randy for their technical input. I've got Johnson 2116LSR's with axle oiling waiting to go into my build, I did some research, looked at them and 5206 Morel's, unfortunately neither are cheap here in Aus but I'm confident definitely worth the extra spend for the Johnson's with axle oiling. I personally would never use a drop in with trays but I know plenty have, and do with success.
Best wishes,
Jason
Best wishes,
Jason
Last edited by Jase01; 05-07-2015 at 01:28 AM.
05-07-2015, 08:17 AM
#86
No offense v8 but if you're so confident tapers are stronger than a straight wall where is your proof? I just showed you the test that was done by vette nuts where the straight pushrod was stiffer. I also then explained the physics behind it with Pressure=F/A. If you make a tapered pushrod that goes from 5/16 to 3/8 the force on the entire pushrod is the same..... However that force is distributed over an area, as you can see by the formula if surface area decreases the pressure on that area must go up creating a weak point. It's simple physics.
If you went to home depot and bought a 1" wood dowel then lathed the ends down to 3/4 do you really think it would be harder to bend and snap than if you hadn't lathed it at all?
If you went to home depot and bought a 1" wood dowel then lathed the ends down to 3/4 do you really think it would be harder to bend and snap than if you hadn't lathed it at all?
05-07-2015, 08:30 AM
#87
You can bet money when it comes to R&D on parts and who is supplying parts these guys are very careful.
05-07-2015, 10:53 AM
#89
No offense v8 but if you're so confident tapers are stronger than a straight wall where is your proof? I just showed you the test that was done by vette nuts where the straight pushrod was stiffer. I also then explained the physics behind it with Pressure=F/A. If you make a tapered pushrod that goes from 5/16 to 3/8 the force on the entire pushrod is the same..... However that force is distributed over an area, as you can see by the formula if surface area decreases the pressure on that area must go up creating a weak point. It's simple physics.
If you went to home depot and bought a 1" wood dowel then lathed the ends down to 3/4 do you really think it would be harder to bend and snap than if you hadn't lathed it at all?
If you went to home depot and bought a 1" wood dowel then lathed the ends down to 3/4 do you really think it would be harder to bend and snap than if you hadn't lathed it at all?
05-07-2015, 01:24 PM
#93
Well as with everything, life changes. The Busch and the Truck series have always been roller tappets and as of the rule change last year 2015 the Cup series is roller tappets. Morels lifters run in all 3 Series. The first race this year with roller tappets was Atlanta and Morel finished 1,2, and 3.
You can bet money when it comes to R&D on parts and who is supplying parts these guys are very careful.
You can bet money when it comes to R&D on parts and who is supplying parts these guys are very careful.
He doesn't know what they're using now, and mentioned that they've actually been having issues with push rods lately and them breaking.
This has always been a highly debated topic.
05-07-2015, 02:44 PM
#94
The test from vettenuts is invalid. That is the wrong formula. Euler buckling load is how the maximum buckling load of a column is calculated. Think about it, would a straight piece .080 thick 4130 flat stock have the same capacity? It would have the same area. This was proposed a very long time ago and has been proven to be scientific fact. The strongest column design has an equilateral triangle cross section, tapers along it's central axis and is thickest in the middle. The increase in section is applied where it's needed most the middle. This column has an increase of buckling load over 60% it's cylindrical counterpart. Changing the cross section to a circle reduces the load capacity but it still remains stronger than the cylinder.
http://link.springer.com/article/10....0252909#page-1
The problem with that is they're talking about a triangular column (triangle cross section) vs a cylindrical one. Yes, that's well established a cylindrical column is not as strong a tapered triangular one. However pushrods cannot be made in triangular columns and translating the data that a tapered triangular column to a solid cylindrical one doesnt hold water. This is a heavily debated topic and even though he does state that a tapered beam is stronger there is no mathematical derivation to porve it, at least not that I am aware of.
Now using Eulers formula for a beam, the Critical load of the beam F= Epi^2(I)/(KL)^2 where K is the constant for a fixed 2 point beam, L is the overall length, E is the modulus of elasticity for the material and I is the moment of inertia of the beam.
Now for a hollow beam I=((do-di)*pi)/64 right here we can almost stop. It is clear to see that given the same wall thickness a beam with a greater exterior wall will have a greater moment of inertia over a smaller one. Thus by the formula will have a greater bucling force. The formulas to calculate the moment of inertia for a beam with tapered ends are very long and complicated lol to say the least and frankly are not in my field of engineering. However there is no way at least to my knowledge to accurately calculate the true buckle force of a beam without testing it. You could use superposition and section the beams taper and calculate small intervals of I but that takes forever and again testing is just easier at that point.
https://books.google.com/books?id=Eq...20beam&f=false
I use this book from time to time when I'm not sure about things and it has a nice little table in it comparing a tapered beam to a cylindrical one.
I'll also put this here. You stated a double tapered pushrod is the strongest beam to get correct? This build uses 9/16-1/2 pushrods they are not double tapered. In fact the only reason stated they are tapered is for head clearance.
http://www.lsxtv.com/tech-stories/en...and-comp-cams/
A lot of the time engineering isn't complicated. You dont need crazy formulas or theories to think logically. Thats actually a huge problem in the engineering field, to many people think analytically and with formulas then just sitting down and thinking about whats plausible. I cant tell you the amount of times I have had someone come to me and say " the math says it should work" but sometimes in real life things just dont play out that they are thought to. Not saying this is an example of that but just food for thought
Last edited by redbird555; 05-07-2015 at 02:52 PM.
05-07-2015, 04:03 PM
#96
One thing I have always really liked about Morel lifters is their machine work and finishing. They really take a lot of care in producing a very nice product.
These are my new Morel 5461 "Ultra Pro" solid roller lifters with a .750" wheel diameter in a .842" body.
These are my new Morel 5461 "Ultra Pro" solid roller lifters with a .750" wheel diameter in a .842" body.
05-07-2015, 11:35 PM
#99
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The problem with assuming that pushrods are triangles, is that pushrods aren't triangles. A double taper pushrod may look like two triangles stacked on top of each other, but they aren't.
In order for it to be two long isosceles triangles, the center diameter would need to have a base leg directly across it's radial direction at the largest diameter of the pushrod. Since it does not have the third leg, it is not a triangle, and it is really just a column of varying cross section which is subject to the same column bending problems that a straight wall pushrod is subject to.
Even if the tapered pushrod did have a base leg radially across the diameter in the center of it's overall length, it is still subject to column bending, but now it is two columns in series, both having a fixed end and a pinned end, making the k factor different (smaller) and having a overall column bending denominator of 2*(L/2)^2.
The point being that 2*(L/2)^2 is much smaller than just L^2.
IE:
7.4" pushrod
2*(L/2)^2 -> 2*(7.4/2)^2 = 27.4
L^2 -> 7.4^2 = 56.8
Meaning that IF the pushrod were two columns stacked then it would carry roughly twice the axial load of a single pushrod of the same length.
Problem is that there is no third leg on the tapered pushrod, it's just a tube more beautiful than it's counterpart (and more expensive too).
In order for it to be two long isosceles triangles, the center diameter would need to have a base leg directly across it's radial direction at the largest diameter of the pushrod. Since it does not have the third leg, it is not a triangle, and it is really just a column of varying cross section which is subject to the same column bending problems that a straight wall pushrod is subject to.
Even if the tapered pushrod did have a base leg radially across the diameter in the center of it's overall length, it is still subject to column bending, but now it is two columns in series, both having a fixed end and a pinned end, making the k factor different (smaller) and having a overall column bending denominator of 2*(L/2)^2.
The point being that 2*(L/2)^2 is much smaller than just L^2.
IE:
7.4" pushrod
2*(L/2)^2 -> 2*(7.4/2)^2 = 27.4
L^2 -> 7.4^2 = 56.8
Meaning that IF the pushrod were two columns stacked then it would carry roughly twice the axial load of a single pushrod of the same length.
Problem is that there is no third leg on the tapered pushrod, it's just a tube more beautiful than it's counterpart (and more expensive too).
07-21-2015, 11:22 AM
#100
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Best bang for the buck? I have read this entire thread and while I admit I cannot yet totally comprehend everything in it, I find myself still wondering what the best lifters are for the money. I have a stock cube LS6 500hp build I'm piecing together now and am looking for a good hydraulic lifter that can hold to occasional blasts to 7500rpm and hopefully help with the "sewing machine" valvetrain noise. I'm leaning towards the Johnson 2110 but would like a link bar set up but I'm not sure I can justify the price increase.
Thoughts and suggestions greatly appreciated.
Thoughts and suggestions greatly appreciated.