Jrod.....good to see you posting again!! (the "old timers" know and appreciate what he brings to the table!).

Let me say that I have "no dog in this hunt" as they say.....I can easily recommend a single to my clients just as easily as I recommend a dual. I'm neither supporting (or not supporting) any certain spring manufacturer....they can just as easily take my money either way (meaning whether I chose to purchase single springs or dual springs).

My take on this in bright lights ("scare tactics" to some!), is a single spring will provide little to no appreciable gains in power but the risk factor running them is....for me....just unacceptable. Basically I'm saying the exact same thing Jrod and others have said that most of us seem to agree on. We aren't talking about running a rocker arm that might break and if you have a problem you may hear some noise, have to pull over and use one of your "triple A" free tows....basically be "inconvenienced" for an evening and back on the road in the next couple of days. If your one of the "unlucky's" and experience a single spring failure your still going to use one of those free tows but your coming home with a worthless pile of metal that you used to call your engine. If that was a forged aftermarket build your support of the harmonics argument just cost you well into the five figures.

My abbreviated take on the single versus dual thing (breaking it down into something simple to understand), is alot of the perks of the single come from the weight versus rate thing (and harmonics to a smaller extent). A single spring with 400+ pounds of open pressure is going to work well cause its light with good pressure but that spring wire is much more "stressed" than a dual spring of similar pressure and what's mainly compromised with that is its life expectancy. No free ride here

Typically a dual needs a little more rate and open pressure than a single to give the same type of valve control and most singles don't have as stout a pressure as KCS has mentioned btw. I suspect his lift, ramp rates on the cam, and expected RPM would dictate a spring stouter than a standard BTR or AFR 8019, or Patriot gold, etc. etc. I would be looking more at a dual that has 450 lbs open or thereabouts and I'm sure the rest of his system will easily handle the extra spring load if he's setting it up properly (and knowing KCS that is pretty much a given).

My guess is a PAC 1207 - 1209 spring would be better suited for this test and I'm pretty confident the difference in power will be very negligible but I don't think a less expensive more generic dual (better aimed at a .600 lift 6800 RPM deal) is the right dual to compare if this test is really going to happen. The generic 95% crowd duals would be better compared against a 26918 or the equivalent that is also aimed at the 95% crowd. I think the build KCS is involved in is a bit more hardcore and falls into the 5% crowd but that is pure speculation on my part not knowing the cast of characters (supporting mods) involved in this build but one must know that to properly choose the proper dual spring as well. Just because it has two coils versus a single doesn't mean its the right spring for the job....there are lots of dual springs to choose from and the price of something Im suggesting is also more inline with the cost of the singles he has already purchased (making for a better test).

-Tony

 

First off, I didn't mean to sell you short with my comments. I respect your experience and appreciate your input. There's only a few others that post here that I can same the same about and I don't think any of them are paying to post on this site.

However, I like to see information to form conclusions and opinions. Others aren't that way and are satisfied with just the cliff notes. For that reason I tend to argue. A lot. Arguing isn't necessarily a bad thing either, as long as the goal is not to "win", but to learn something.

If KCS can follow through and do the independent back to back testing and post the graph, then I think it will be some of the best information anyone has been able to provide thus far.

 

It is a flat top 347. We'd have done it with the stock bottom end, but the press fit on the seats in the ported LS6 heads we were using at the time wasn't up to snuff, and it dropped a seat and forced a rebuild.

The heads on it are a set of 1st gen AFR 205's (7+ years old) we could probably make a little more peak by moving to one of Tony's newer heads. And we could move peak HP even higher by moving to a 4bbl intake. But that won't clear the stock hood. So, it is what it is.

Going back to what I said earlier. Its all about combo... We could have gotten away with less (spring/pushrod/rocker), and we might not have had any issues. But the idea was to build a combo that was rock solid, and we did so. Not for everyone, but it works, and its been together for 7+ years.

 

Hey Know It All,

I fully agree with your thoughts here on Havoc40, his input in this forum is fantastic but if I've read this part of your post correctly, you've just "sold short" at least several other experienced and very knowledgeable commenters not only in this thread, but the forum in general who happen to be sponsors.

You're entitled to your opinion and it can sometimes take a bit of working out who to listen to or not in forums and I agree generally there's not too many, but I'm wondering what credentials you might have that gives you the basis for the particular disrespect you appear to have shown in this instance?

No one's trying to shove a dual spring down your throat over a beehive here to make a profit, just giving input/recommendations based on their own experience the same as Havoc40 did and you're free to make your own choice.

Best wishes,
Jason.


[QUOTE=Know It All;18891351]First off, I didn't mean to sell you short with my comments. I respect your experience and appreciate your input. There's only a few others that post here that I can same the same about and I don't think any of them are paying to post on this site.

 

I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express...

 

J-Rod, it was your post that made me want beehives. It was this thread that made me want PSI 1511ml beehives. In particular, this post by Damian. This must be my problem. To lump all beehives in the same box and make a blanket statement is like saying, "My friend ate a taco from Paco's tacos and it gave him the runs therefore, all tacos give people the runs".

 

This should be a stickey. I will NEVER consider buying a beehive spring. It's a no brainer to me.

 

While you were travelling giving seminars on valve train tech I assume, did you get VIP rates?

Best wishes,
Jason.

 

[QUOTE=squalor;18896401]J-Rod, it was your post that made me want beehives. It was this thread that made me want PSI 1511ml beehives. In particular, this post by Damian.
Excuse my lack of searching for it but do any manufacturers make a double Conical or Beehive spring? Wouldn't that be the end all, best case scenario spring? To me either of those with a titanium retainer/ keeper would be optimal.

 

Some good stuff here....

 

I read that Comp is coming out with a dual conical spring. It's probably geared towards mild solid rollers since it has something like 600lbs open.

 

saw this in an article that was forwarded to me now that im looking for a set of springs.... scroll down to the last graph comparing btr dual springs to 918 beehives.

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/eng...-valvesprings/

 

Good read....and that all important last paragraph backs up exactly what I (and others) have also seen. And FWIW, Richard Holdener is hardcore.....this guy has done ALOT of dyno testing and knows how to properly test various components by maintaining all the other variables as much as possible (same water and oil temps of the engine when you do the pull etc.).

-Tony

 

thanks Tony I replied to your pm last week about spring choice for my yella terras I know your busy but if you need me to send it again just let me know!

 

Interesting read and dyno numbers on that LS3. 590hp is no joke in any case. One thing I would have liked to see is the seat pressures of the springs as well as the weights.

 

I agree, but a comp 918 is a pretty common beehive for higher lift (~.600), and the BTR dual platinum is becoming the standard dual for the low .600 range as well. To me, this was the best comparative dyno I've seen between the configurations.

It was interesting to note that going from stock beehives to comp 918's cost some power as well, which goes back to many other responses earlier in the thread - that the huge disparity between the chosen dual and beehive springs in that other article was too large to make a valid conclusion, and that if the spring rates are basically the same, the power required to turn the cam is basically the same.

If nothing else, future readers of this thread should note that there is such a thing as over-springing your set up, and that the builder needs to use enough spring to control the valves without providing so much spring as to cause pushrod deflection. That is the real takeaway in my mind.

 

The seat pressure of the duals is more. they can both be found with a 2 minute good search. its about as apples to apples as you can get.

COMP: 918
125LB @1.800
367@1.15

BTR Dual:
155LB @1.800
380@1.18

Very similar springs. The pressures at one given spec arent going to tell you a whole lot about how much parasitic loss the springs use. Example, the ls6 spring was 5hp more than the aftermarket ones. The btr and comp were the same despite the btr having a higher seat pressure. The spring rate is what determines how hard the spring is to compress and for the that the btr is 377 which is right in the range of most beehives.

Weight on the btr with a ti retainer is right at 100g or so and a beehive would be about 15-20 grams less. The weight is a concern for control but not for hp necessarily.

as darth said dont overspring the setup. the nice thing about the btr is that it shares similar specs to most quality beehives yet offers the safety of a dual. therefore it wont be "overspring" for most small applications yet will still offer the protection of a stiffer dual spring

 

Red....sorry for the delay....I will be in touch later

-Tony