Rod bolts
The higher yield allows you to increase the torque/stretch/angle/whatever and increase the clamping load on the rod. This is the real benefit of an ARP bolt. This oftentimes causes the bore distortion the OP is talking about, but it's need to counteract the increased loads trying to tear the rod apart at higher engine speeds.
I agree with what the bolts are supposed to do and what each method does. But here is the bottom line issue.
Since the ARP type bolt has a higher tensile strength, it will not stretch as much as a stock bolt, therefore if you want to use the ARP bolt, you can not use the stretch or angle method due to the bolt placing more pressure on the cap if set like a stock bolt. How is anyone ever going to be able to use the ARP bolt on any rod cap, main cap, head ect that is supposed to be set by stretch or angle? How do you find the correct set point? I know ARP has its ratings and specs, but is it 100% correct?
This question here is why I stated the way I want to try to use the ARP bolts. Set a couple of rods with stock bolts and GM's preferred angle method. Find the actual torque on the bolt and then replace the bolts to that certain torque number. Sure the ARP "holding" effort may be different, but I will be certain that the cap is not seeing any added pressure over stock and not causing the rod bore to change. I will also have knowledge that I have a stronger bolt. IF the bolt backs out then it happens. But I have never had an ARP bolt back out. So if the ARP bolt has 10% less holding or gripping pressure then so be it.
I also do not argue the point that guys use stock bolts on high hp engines and have good success. But why do that to save $50.00 to $75.00.I would rather have the bolt that is well known to be stronger.
Since the ARP type bolt has a higher tensile strength, it will not stretch as much as a stock bolt, therefore if you want to use the ARP bolt, you can not use the stretch or angle method due to the bolt placing more pressure on the cap if set like a stock bolt. How is anyone ever going to be able to use the ARP bolt on any rod cap, main cap, head ect that is supposed to be set by stretch or angle? How do you find the correct set point? I know ARP has its ratings and specs, but is it 100% correct?
This question here is why I stated the way I want to try to use the ARP bolts. Set a couple of rods with stock bolts and GM's preferred angle method. Find the actual torque on the bolt and then replace the bolts to that certain torque number. Sure the ARP "holding" effort may be different, but I will be certain that the cap is not seeing any added pressure over stock and not causing the rod bore to change. I will also have knowledge that I have a stronger bolt. IF the bolt backs out then it happens. But I have never had an ARP bolt back out. So if the ARP bolt has 10% less holding or gripping pressure then so be it.
I also do not argue the point that guys use stock bolts on high hp engines and have good success. But why do that to save $50.00 to $75.00.I would rather have the bolt that is well known to be stronger.
Last edited by Taxman20; Jan 1, 2016 at 09:51 AM.
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I agree with Taxman on saving a buck on rod bolts, it doesn't make sense to me unless you are buying 400 dollar junk yard motors and slapping them in. I have built 2 6.0's that routinely see 6900-7000RPM's in a circle track application. I upgraded Gen 4 rods with ARP 2000 bolts. We installed the bolts, then honed the rods .002" over and ran an oversized bearing to ensure we would keep concentricity. I would rather invest a couple hundred extra in bolts and machine work and keep the rods in the block then chance it.
Matt, that's cool. How did you torque the rod bolts? This is info I am needing. Our rules never allowed the new gen engines when I ran stock cars and the drag racing was always early BBC based. So we never had to figure this out for ourselves.
I am building a SBE turbo engine for my S10. But I am not running stock bolts. Using Gen4 rods and pistons.
I am building a SBE turbo engine for my S10. But I am not running stock bolts. Using Gen4 rods and pistons.
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We torqued them according to ARP's specs if not using a stretch gauge. I did not have one at that point, I am investing in one for my future builds. My thought process was if my machinist hones the rods with the bolts torqued, and I install based on that torque (I do not mix up bolts when taking off caps) the concentricity should be maintained. I can get you the the Clevite bearing part number if you are interested, it is a bit tricky to locate.
I have not had either motor back apart to check the bearings for wear, but both motors have run consistent oil pressure from initial start to now, so no need for tear down.
I have not had either motor back apart to check the bearings for wear, but both motors have run consistent oil pressure from initial start to now, so no need for tear down.
That's really up to you. Its what you feel comfortable with. Lots of people have different preferences.
Also since Matt has had success with ARP settings, I am going to stick with that and it should be fine.
Also since Matt has had success with ARP settings, I am going to stick with that and it should be fine.
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Of course that is an option. I didn't feel like rebalancing the whole assembly which I would want to do with new rods. I also have not had great luck in the past with import rod tolerances out of the box, I would rather stick with what has worked for me in the past. My next motor is going to be a 408 so I will be running TSP H-beam rods so I am curious to see how them come delivered as far as measurements. This motor is going in a street car so it will more or less live a life of ease compared to the other 2 which just get flogged.
Taxman, here is the link to Summit for the bearings. Unfortunately I have only been able to find them in aluminum, but so far so good. TSP can also get them but they don't list them on their website and it takes some searching for them to find them.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cle-cb1776a
I agree with what the bolts are supposed to do and what each method does. But here is the bottom line issue.
Since the ARP type bolt has a higher tensile strength, it will not stretch as much as a stock bolt, therefore if you want to use the ARP bolt, you can not use the stretch or angle method due to the bolt placing more pressure on the cap if set like a stock bolt. How is anyone ever going to be able to use the ARP bolt on any rod cap, main cap, head ect that is supposed to be set by stretch or angle? How do you find the correct set point? I know ARP has its ratings and specs, but is it 100% correct?
This question here is why I stated the way I want to try to use the ARP bolts. Set a couple of rods with stock bolts and GM's preferred angle method. Find the actual torque on the bolt and then replace the bolts to that certain torque number. Sure the ARP "holding" effort may be different, but I will be certain that the cap is not seeing any added pressure over stock and not causing the rod bore to change. I will also have knowledge that I have a stronger bolt. IF the bolt backs out then it happens. But I have never had an ARP bolt back out. So if the ARP bolt has 10% less holding or gripping pressure then so be it.
I also do not argue the point that guys use stock bolts on high hp engines and have good success. But why do that to save $50.00 to $75.00.I would rather have the bolt that is well known to be stronger.
Since the ARP type bolt has a higher tensile strength, it will not stretch as much as a stock bolt, therefore if you want to use the ARP bolt, you can not use the stretch or angle method due to the bolt placing more pressure on the cap if set like a stock bolt. How is anyone ever going to be able to use the ARP bolt on any rod cap, main cap, head ect that is supposed to be set by stretch or angle? How do you find the correct set point? I know ARP has its ratings and specs, but is it 100% correct?
This question here is why I stated the way I want to try to use the ARP bolts. Set a couple of rods with stock bolts and GM's preferred angle method. Find the actual torque on the bolt and then replace the bolts to that certain torque number. Sure the ARP "holding" effort may be different, but I will be certain that the cap is not seeing any added pressure over stock and not causing the rod bore to change. I will also have knowledge that I have a stronger bolt. IF the bolt backs out then it happens. But I have never had an ARP bolt back out. So if the ARP bolt has 10% less holding or gripping pressure then so be it.
I also do not argue the point that guys use stock bolts on high hp engines and have good success. But why do that to save $50.00 to $75.00.I would rather have the bolt that is well known to be stronger.
Of course that is an option. I didn't feel like rebalancing the whole assembly which I would want to do with new rods. I also have not had great luck in the past with import rod tolerances out of the box, I would rather stick with what has worked for me in the past. My next motor is going to be a 408 so I will be running TSP H-beam rods so I am curious to see how them come delivered as far as measurements. This motor is going in a street car so it will more or less live a life of ease compared to the other 2 which just get flogged.
Taxman, here is the link to Summit for the bearings. Unfortunately I have only been able to find them in aluminum, but so far so good. TSP can also get them but they don't list them on their website and it takes some searching for them to find them.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cle-cb1776a
Taxman, here is the link to Summit for the bearings. Unfortunately I have only been able to find them in aluminum, but so far so good. TSP can also get them but they don't list them on their website and it takes some searching for them to find them.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cle-cb1776a
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I would love the part number for an ACL bearing though as I would have rather used those and would prefer to do so in the future.
In the notes on the link I provided it specifically says "Connecting rod bore must be resized .002 larger than stock." That was also confirmed by TSP as I bought my first set from them.
I would love the part number for an ACL bearing though as I would have rather used those and would prefer to do so in the future.
I would love the part number for an ACL bearing though as I would have rather used those and would prefer to do so in the future.
B663HOS2-STD is your standard sized bearing. B663HXOS2-STD is for .001" more clearance. Again, my knowledge, Competition Products is the only place that sells them.
I have built 2 6.0's that routinely see 6900-7000RPM's in a circle track application. I upgraded Gen 4 rods with ARP 2000 bolts. We installed the bolts, then honed the rods .002" over and ran an oversized bearing to ensure we would keep concentricity. I would rather invest a couple hundred extra in bolts and machine work and keep the rods in the block then chance it.
Where in the world did I say to not resize the rod end? I never mentioned that at all. This conversation is on the bolts. I have Gen4 rods and pistons going into a Gen3 block and on the stock Gen3 crank. So yes, its going to the machine shop. Having the block cleaned and checked, Cam bearings installed since I don't have the installer, crank checked, rods checked and resize the big end, and balance the complete rotating assy. And yes, they will also have the ARP rod bolts when they do this work. I have never done this any other way. Every engine I have ever built gets this work done.
On the torque amount being lower. I don't plan on it being lower. I need to see where the stock bolt is when set by angle. Whatever the torque reading is on that stock bolt, use that same torque for the ARP bolts. If there is a big difference in this number versus what ARP states, I will then contact the right people to double check my numbers, the reasons why ARP set their number where it is and then go from there.
On the torque amount being lower. I don't plan on it being lower. I need to see where the stock bolt is when set by angle. Whatever the torque reading is on that stock bolt, use that same torque for the ARP bolts. If there is a big difference in this number versus what ARP states, I will then contact the right people to double check my numbers, the reasons why ARP set their number where it is and then go from there.
Where in the world did I say to not resize the rod end? I never mentioned that at all. This conversation is on the bolts. I have Gen4 rods and pistons going into a Gen3 block and on the stock Gen3 crank. So yes, its going to the machine shop. Having the block cleaned and checked, Cam bearings installed since I don't have the installer, crank checked, rods checked and resize the big end, and balance the complete rotating assy. And yes, they will also have the ARP rod bolts when they do this work. I have never done this any other way. Every engine I have ever built gets this work done.
On the torque amount being lower. I don't plan on it being lower. I need to see where the stock bolt is when set by angle. Whatever the torque reading is on that stock bolt, use that same torque for the ARP bolts. If there is a big difference in this number versus what ARP states, I will then contact the right people to double check my numbers, the reasons why ARP set their number where it is and then go from there.
On the torque amount being lower. I don't plan on it being lower. I need to see where the stock bolt is when set by angle. Whatever the torque reading is on that stock bolt, use that same torque for the ARP bolts. If there is a big difference in this number versus what ARP states, I will then contact the right people to double check my numbers, the reasons why ARP set their number where it is and then go from there.
I'm seriously sitting here trying to figure out if you're just trolling or really just clueless. Either way, I sincerely hope no one takes your posts seriously and try to follow your methods.
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Yeah, I agree they're for the oversized rods as well, but I think you have to turn the crank .010" to use them. The ACL's I mentioned are also for the oversized rods, but you can use them on standard for journals.
B663HOS2-STD is your standard sized bearing. B663HXOS2-STD is for .001" more clearance. Again, my knowledge, Competition Products is the only place that sells them.
B663HOS2-STD is your standard sized bearing. B663HXOS2-STD is for .001" more clearance. Again, my knowledge, Competition Products is the only place that sells them.
Teching In
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Where in the world did I say to not resize the rod end? I never mentioned that at all. This conversation is on the bolts. I have Gen4 rods and pistons going into a Gen3 block and on the stock Gen3 crank. So yes, its going to the machine shop. Having the block cleaned and checked, Cam bearings installed since I don't have the installer, crank checked, rods checked and resize the big end, and balance the complete rotating assy. And yes, they will also have the ARP rod bolts when they do this work. I have never done this any other way. Every engine I have ever built gets this work done.
On the torque amount being lower. I don't plan on it being lower. I need to see where the stock bolt is when set by angle. Whatever the torque reading is on that stock bolt, use that same torque for the ARP bolts. If there is a big difference in this number versus what ARP states, I will then contact the right people to double check my numbers, the reasons why ARP set their number where it is and then go from there.
On the torque amount being lower. I don't plan on it being lower. I need to see where the stock bolt is when set by angle. Whatever the torque reading is on that stock bolt, use that same torque for the ARP bolts. If there is a big difference in this number versus what ARP states, I will then contact the right people to double check my numbers, the reasons why ARP set their number where it is and then go from there.
Why bother with any of this stock bolt torque measuring nonsense and just spend the nominal amount to hone the rod after the bolts are torqued properly if necessary? You seem like a smart guy, I am just missing your logic here.
Yea this is exactly why trying to say anything in text. sometimes doesn't work. Things are taken out of context.
I NEVER said I was using a certain torque to avoid distortion. I DID say that I was going to try and torque the ARP bolt the same total amount of torque as the stock bolt. I agreed that torqueing a stronger bolt could result un a higher ending torque if using the angle method due to lack of bolt stretch. Hense a little lower torque than the stock bolt end result.
As for trolling, nope. The way I am setting my rods and bolts are not unlike Matt sets his. Using torque. I am going to do some tests and see what kind of poundage different ways end up though. So whats the issue?
You guys are killing me with reading what you like into my words.
Ill try to make this simple.
Use stock bolt. Torque using angle method.
Check final lbs of torque on that stock bolt
Install ARP bolts to that poundage.
Is it really that hard?
I understand the conversation of "holding" and Grip on the rod by the bolt. I am not worried about that when using the ARP.
I cant make it any more simple.
I NEVER said I was using a certain torque to avoid distortion. I DID say that I was going to try and torque the ARP bolt the same total amount of torque as the stock bolt. I agreed that torqueing a stronger bolt could result un a higher ending torque if using the angle method due to lack of bolt stretch. Hense a little lower torque than the stock bolt end result.
As for trolling, nope. The way I am setting my rods and bolts are not unlike Matt sets his. Using torque. I am going to do some tests and see what kind of poundage different ways end up though. So whats the issue?
You guys are killing me with reading what you like into my words.
Ill try to make this simple.
Use stock bolt. Torque using angle method.
Check final lbs of torque on that stock bolt
Install ARP bolts to that poundage.
Is it really that hard?
I understand the conversation of "holding" and Grip on the rod by the bolt. I am not worried about that when using the ARP.
I cant make it any more simple.
Last edited by Taxman20; Jan 1, 2016 at 03:12 PM.
ARP has their own torque rating on the bolt. You just can't check what a stock bolt is, and torque the ARP to that same value. The actual CORRECT way to to torque ARP rod bolts is to use a stretch gauge, but if you don't, they give the recommended torque setting.