Straub Bushing Trunion Kits?
I use the 11/32 Manton with .045 oil hole in hyd engines, not sure which stage they are.
Kurt
Kurt
The restriction helps with oil control in high rpm engines. A typical street car customer will burn 8.5 gallons of premium in 30 minutes at VIR, that's keeping them working pretty hard.
Kurt
Kurt
I've never ran a restricted oiling pushrod on a hydraulic ls engine, but I'd think that they aren't absolutely needed unless you were running a very limited travel lifter. The increase in OD diameter on the push rod is never a bad idea as I personally like to fit the absolute largest push rod possible.
I'd like to hear Kurt's thoughts on the restricted push rods on a hydraulic roller application.
I'd like to hear Kurt's thoughts on the restricted push rods on a hydraulic roller application.
I have not used them on boosted engines, just NA. I was guessing the side load of the offset would cause more trouble, but that has not proved out. I separate intake and exhaust on tear down, they both seem the same. I put the CHE bushings in today, the Straub ones will go in next week. Then we let them burn gas and see what happens!
Kurt
Kurt
Kurt,
I brought up your findings in this thread and others after members asked about the longevity of traditional needle bearing style trunion kits versus what could be expected with the bushing style trunion kits.
I'm glad you chimed in and were able to validate this.
Your experience and knowledge are a huge benefit to the ls community Kurt. Are you seeing any additional or added wear on the exhaust trunions Kurt? Especially in higher HP/higher cylinder pressure type applications where there is more load placed on the exhaust side of the valve train?
You can easily see where the individual needles that were receiving all of the load wore into the trunion. By spreading this load out with a bushing, using a REM polished tool steel trunion and the additional oiling the Straub kit provides from the dedicated oiling channels, this wear seen in Kurt's pictures will be a thing of the past.
Anyone with a needle bearing kit should highly consider swapping to this bushing style kit.
Should we of expected anything else Chris?
I brought up your findings in this thread and others after members asked about the longevity of traditional needle bearing style trunion kits versus what could be expected with the bushing style trunion kits.
I'm glad you chimed in and were able to validate this.
Your experience and knowledge are a huge benefit to the ls community Kurt. Are you seeing any additional or added wear on the exhaust trunions Kurt? Especially in higher HP/higher cylinder pressure type applications where there is more load placed on the exhaust side of the valve train?
You can easily see where the individual needles that were receiving all of the load wore into the trunion. By spreading this load out with a bushing, using a REM polished tool steel trunion and the additional oiling the Straub kit provides from the dedicated oiling channels, this wear seen in Kurt's pictures will be a thing of the past.
Anyone with a needle bearing kit should highly consider swapping to this bushing style kit.
Should we of expected anything else Chris?
I will have to try this on a few of my customers high RPM hydraulic roller engines. A few are turning close to 8000rpm at the finish line and I'm sure they'd benefit from this.
One of them is a N/A engine that I sent a Straub kit with the upgraded bolt to test and get some R&D feedback from. He shifts at 7800 and crosses at 8000.
Thank you for your information and knowledge sir, 8.5 gallons in half and hour is a lot of fuel and supplying a lot of HP!!!!
I have not used them on boosted engines, just NA. I was guessing the side load of the offset would cause more trouble, but that has not proved out. I separate intake and exhaust on tear down, they both seem the same. I put the CHE bushings in today, the Straub ones will go in next week. Then we let them burn gas and see what happens!
Kurt
Kurt
Please keep us updated with your findings, if anyone will be thorough and unbiased regarding results it will be you.
Thanks again for your responses!
So going back to what I was asking, you really have to hone a single THOUSANDTH out of the rocker body for the bushings to fit? Can anyone else confirm this? Martin? Straub? Kurt?
"Dave's Garage" doesn't have the tools hone a frickin thousandth, much less measure something that precise.
Looks like I'll be going back with trunion upgrades that never gave me any issue to begin with...
"Dave's Garage" doesn't have the tools hone a frickin thousandth, much less measure something that precise.
Looks like I'll be going back with trunion upgrades that never gave me any issue to begin with...
Feedback from customers is that yes the valvetrain is quieter. There has been some other "bonus" with the retro fit but I want to get a few some more data before I report it.
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The balance of weight over performance is why I use the stock rockers, they are the best product for this application. I use Jesel rockers on solid roller engines when spring load can be increased without causing lifter problems. It looks like the first failure point in my testing has been the outer race, then the shaft gets damage. I think the stock bearings might work better, but they are limited in travel for ease of install on the assembly line and fragile to valve toss damage.
Kurt
Kurt
I've never ran a restricted oiling pushrod on a hydraulic ls engine, but I'd think that they aren't absolutely needed unless you were running a very limited travel lifter. The increase in OD diameter on the push rod is never a bad idea as I personally like to fit the absolute largest push rod possible.
I'd like to hear Kurt's thoughts on the restricted push rods on a hydraulic roller application.
I'd like to hear Kurt's thoughts on the restricted push rods on a hydraulic roller application.
Is it better to get these with the bolts or not? Are the replacement bolts shorter to aid in not protruding into the intake tract of ported heads? Thinking about just throwing a set of these in my LS7.
Found out my 36k mile 09 Z06 is on motor number 2, as the first one popped at 22k.
Hmm. I wonder why...
Found out my 36k mile 09 Z06 is on motor number 2, as the first one popped at 22k.
Hmm. I wonder why...
The roller bearing is definitely the better way if we can get the right parts at reasonable cost, but right now I don't know if it exists yet. The bearing moves in the replacement parts currently available, but the outer race is in a fixed position. The bearings of mine (Comp) where the trunnion is still polished without damage (Only 3!) had 6 outer races, 4 of those were already damaged so the trunnion would have shown damage soon. That leads me to believe it still might work if we can find a bearing with a better race. The Harland Sharp trunnion kit worked best of those (roller bearing) I tested, most trunions came out without any marks. On the Harland kit the rollers and outer race still showed damage, so it seemed on those the bearing race was the failure point. Until we figure it out the bushings might be the best alternative. The bushings will add drag and oil temp, but how much is unknown. The CHE has more surface area and larger trunnion that will carry more load, but is that needed? The CHE is also using the bushing for lateral alignment, but they only sell them installed in your parts so they cost more and take longer.
The Straub assembled in conventional way uses the snap ring for lateral alignment, not sure how that will work out. I made a tool for setting the lateral alignment with the bushing on my first set, I will order another set and test them with standard assembly.
Kurt
The Straub assembled in conventional way uses the snap ring for lateral alignment, not sure how that will work out. I made a tool for setting the lateral alignment with the bushing on my first set, I will order another set and test them with standard assembly.
Kurt
Thanks for the info. I visit quite a few bearing manufacturers along with a lot of the companies that manufacture aftermarket performance parts for the LS (and other) engines. I think I am going to talk to them about a fix for the factory bearing issue. Have you ever checked the geometry on the factory rocker? Are they truly 1.7 and 1.8 or do they vary quite a bit?
I have only installed one set of the Straub bushings, they required no honing of the rocker body. The CHE bushings are installed by them, not sure if they hone anything on install.
Kurt
Kurt
So going back to what I was asking, you really have to hone a single THOUSANDTH out of the rocker body for the bushings to fit? Can anyone else confirm this? Martin? Straub? Kurt?
"Dave's Garage" doesn't have the tools hone a frickin thousandth, much less measure something that precise.
Looks like I'll be going back with trunion upgrades that never gave me any issue to begin with...
"Dave's Garage" doesn't have the tools hone a frickin thousandth, much less measure something that precise.
Looks like I'll be going back with trunion upgrades that never gave me any issue to begin with...
These straub bushings have extremely less play than my comps. I don't see how they couldn't be quieter. I did take a lot of time setting the busing depth on the rockers. If you leave a lot of latteral movement when installing the bushings the snap rings will contact the bushings. However if you set the bushing depth just right the trunion will limit lateral movement and the snap rings will not contact the bushings. Another thing I noticed is a small spot machined under the head of the bolt to let oil past the top of the bolt and get to the bottom of the trunion and bushing( at least I assume that's what it's for).
I am unsure why straub is recommending 29 ft/lb for torque when stock is 22 ft/lbs.
I did order the Manton stage 3 for LS motors in 11/32 with an .060" oiling hole. Just for reference the 5/16 in the car now were .090". I measured the hole on the rocker for oil and it measures .070". So at .090" the push rods are holding a lot of oil.
Also my measurements showed there is a slight size difference in the comp trunion and straub trunion. The straub trunion diameter is slightly bigger. I don't have a stock one to measure so I am unsure on which one is better.
I am unsure why straub is recommending 29 ft/lb for torque when stock is 22 ft/lbs.
I did order the Manton stage 3 for LS motors in 11/32 with an .060" oiling hole. Just for reference the 5/16 in the car now were .090". I measured the hole on the rocker for oil and it measures .070". So at .090" the push rods are holding a lot of oil.
Also my measurements showed there is a slight size difference in the comp trunion and straub trunion. The straub trunion diameter is slightly bigger. I don't have a stock one to measure so I am unsure on which one is better.
I'm not sure why they recommend 29ft lbs, but that might pull threads out of aluminum heads. I'm still using 22ft lbs on my stuff.
I made a tool for pushing my bushings in .010 below surface, that put my side clearance at .004 without the clips installed.
The CHE is larger at 18mm trunnion, not sure if we need that, but it should help with longer wear and reduce bearing load. The factory is not round, it uses a inside race for load carrying. The trunnion is around .560, but then adds a full round inner race that increases the diameter the bearings roll on. My guess is they are close to that .625 number.
The pushrod tubes are all hollow, but Manton will make restricted ends if you ask for them. I have used them in drag engines, but they are mainly needed on road race engines in sustained high rpm for helping with keeping oil in the pan!
Kurt
I made a tool for pushing my bushings in .010 below surface, that put my side clearance at .004 without the clips installed.
The CHE is larger at 18mm trunnion, not sure if we need that, but it should help with longer wear and reduce bearing load. The factory is not round, it uses a inside race for load carrying. The trunnion is around .560, but then adds a full round inner race that increases the diameter the bearings roll on. My guess is they are close to that .625 number.
The pushrod tubes are all hollow, but Manton will make restricted ends if you ask for them. I have used them in drag engines, but they are mainly needed on road race engines in sustained high rpm for helping with keeping oil in the pan!
Kurt
These straub bushings have extremely less play than my comps. I don't see how they couldn't be quieter. I did take a lot of time setting the busing depth on the rockers. If you leave a lot of latteral movement when installing the bushings the snap rings will contact the bushings. However if you set the bushing depth just right the trunion will limit lateral movement and the snap rings will not contact the bushings. Another thing I noticed is a small spot machined under the head of the bolt to let oil past the top of the bolt and get to the bottom of the trunion and bushing( at least I assume that's what it's for).
I am unsure why straub is recommending 29 ft/lb for torque when stock is 22 ft/lbs.
I did order the Manton stage 3 for LS motors in 11/32 with an .060" oiling hole. Just for reference the 5/16 in the car now were .090". I measured the hole on the rocker for oil and it measures .070". So at .090" the push rods are holding a lot of oil.
Also my measurements showed there is a slight size difference in the comp trunion and straub trunion. The straub trunion diameter is slightly bigger. I don't have a stock one to measure so I am unsure on which one is better.
I am unsure why straub is recommending 29 ft/lb for torque when stock is 22 ft/lbs.
I did order the Manton stage 3 for LS motors in 11/32 with an .060" oiling hole. Just for reference the 5/16 in the car now were .090". I measured the hole on the rocker for oil and it measures .070". So at .090" the push rods are holding a lot of oil.
Also my measurements showed there is a slight size difference in the comp trunion and straub trunion. The straub trunion diameter is slightly bigger. I don't have a stock one to measure so I am unsure on which one is better.
I'm not sure why they recommend 29ft lbs, but that might pull threads out of aluminum heads. I'm still using 22ft lbs on my stuff.
I made a tool for pushing my bushings in .010 below surface, that put my side clearance at .004 without the clips installed.
The CHE is larger at 18mm trunnion, not sure if we need that, but it should help with longer wear and reduce bearing load. The factory is not round, it uses a inside race for load carrying. The trunnion is around .560, but then adds a full round inner race that increases the diameter the bearings roll on. My guess is they are close to that .625 number.
The pushrod tubes are all hollow, but Manton will make restricted ends if you ask for them. I have used them in drag engines, but they are mainly needed on road race engines in sustained high rpm for helping with keeping oil in the pan!
Kurt
I made a tool for pushing my bushings in .010 below surface, that put my side clearance at .004 without the clips installed.
The CHE is larger at 18mm trunnion, not sure if we need that, but it should help with longer wear and reduce bearing load. The factory is not round, it uses a inside race for load carrying. The trunnion is around .560, but then adds a full round inner race that increases the diameter the bearings roll on. My guess is they are close to that .625 number.
The pushrod tubes are all hollow, but Manton will make restricted ends if you ask for them. I have used them in drag engines, but they are mainly needed on road race engines in sustained high rpm for helping with keeping oil in the pan!
Kurt
The larger you can make the trunion, the less radial movement you will get. On a bushing, the less movement the greater the life and less heat. You will also add surface area, which is also a good thing. Bronze is less thermally conductive of heat (in most cases), so the heat that isn't pulled away by the oil should go into the trunion and rocker and not the bushing. That would mean a thinner bushing would work fine to a degree.
I think he was referring specifically to LS7 applications. There has been mention that the bore on the LS7 rockers is slightly tighter than the rest.
Just received my bushing kit today. Looks like quality pieces and I can say dealing with Martin was cake.Especially being in Canada. I plan to install them tomorrow. Looking forward to putting them to work when winter is over.