500HP - Missed it by THAT much
03-05-2016, 11:25 PM
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500HP - Missed it by THAT much OK, so the final numbers came in at 496hp at 6710 and 432TQ at 4990 (tried like hell to hit 500!!). Extra points if you caught the Max Smart reference. 
All in, it picked up about 20 from the lighter clutch and converting to true duals combined. I was really glad to see the result, and yet it was frustrating to not quite get 500, but it just wasn't there, just not enough cam. Definition of mixed emotions – like watching John Elway not know how to react when Tim Tebow did something good. But to even get this close with a 227/236 cam is really awesome, and I doubt it would be possible without the MMS 220 heads because the airflow to get us there certainly didn't come from the cam!
In fact, when I called Tony recently about the results, he was thrilled but of course also bummed that we didn't hit the magic 5XX figure....his guess was another 4 degrees of cam timing would have done it but with milled heads the P to V is starting to get really tight there. And I LOVE how it drives with the small cam....it has huge power everywhere and is explosive at any RPM which I think you would miss with a larger cam potentially. I plan to take some short videos later on and post them, but I can drive 50 MPH in 6th with no bucking, 45 in 6th with very minor bucking. I can do fourth at 20, like when the skip shift used to kick it over, and it just pulls out of it. I’ve done 5th at 30, but that’s about when the drivetrain starts to complain.
We tried moving the timing in half-degree increments, minor tweaking of fuel. Ran best at about 12.5 AFR at peak TQ and right at 13 for peak HP. Pulled all the way to 7,000 to see the peak and slow roll off. I’m really happy with the power curve and it feels just as insane in the car as this graph would indicate pulling like a freight train to 7000 RPM. You’ll see it when I post the pulls. I’m going to grab a first, second, and third gear pull, because words just don’t convey it. After I do something to kill some of the exhaust noise.
So, hats off to Tony for figuring out how to make a smaller cam deliver with yet another example of his highly optimized combinations. There were hundreds of details I missed the first time I built it, and they all added up. When I first called him up, he said he wanted to swing for the fences with this build, and As the parts started adding up, I got nervous about money. And no lie, it costs, but the memory of the pain of the cost dies down pretty quickly. I daily drive this build, and I doubt a donkey-dick cam would be nearly as fun to drive everyday, which was a major goal of this build – more important than the power.
Btw, it was weeks of playing with idle settings just to get it to only surge a few hundred RPM at red lights, and another few weeks to finally get a stable idle. I can't imagine getting a larger cam to settle down and idle with a light clutch, it would be alot of work. What's funny is that the lighter clutch had more to do with hurting the idle than the heads did. It was idling good at 925, but installing the clutch made it so responsive, small moves in the IAC would just throw it for a loop, so I had to figure out how to make the IAC settle down. Weird to describe, but the motor reacts to the IAC faster than the IAC reacts to the motor.
So, there are really only two things limiting the car right now - the cam is limiting getting more air into (and out of) the engine at this point and TRACTION. It's one thing to smoke the tires on gear shifts, but this is entirely different. I take first or second up to 5,000 rpm under load, and the tires break loose. And that's not even WOT. I can't engage too hard in first or second, the car just spins. Then, third will still sometimes break them loose under WOT load, which still scares the crap out of me - going sideways at 110. I can chirp fourth gear if I dump it on a high RPM shift. Hankook Ventus 305's if that matters at all.
So, next steps. First of all, I recently discovered, I’m officially public enemy number 1 due to waking up kids at 6am when I drive to work for about a half mile radius around my house. So, I have to park the car until I quiet it down. I’ve had threats to call the police, or dump sand in the gas tank, etc. Sucks, but I guess I understand (a little).
I don't want to put stickier shoes on until the rear and driveshaft can handle it. Might as well gear it to get into the higher RPMs sooner while i'm in there, so I'm thinking 3.89 ratio. Then, I've just installed a tubular front end (K and control arms by PA Racing) I picked up from a user on Tech, along with adjustable trailing arms. Already have the BMR adjustable panhard and brace relocation kit installed to clearance for the kooks duals. Have to decide on the torque arm as well, subframe connectors, and anything else I need to hook the power. Side story, took it for alignment after I put the new K on, and it was a total Ferris Bueller thing. The tech took my car for a twenty minute drive, and I realized for the first time how loud it really is under load.
All in all the car is a freakin blast to drive if not a little scary. Sorry for the long-*** post. Lots of excitement on this end of the internet. Also, sorry it took so long for the update, life just gets in the way sometimes!
All in, it picked up about 20 from the lighter clutch and converting to true duals combined. I was really glad to see the result, and yet it was frustrating to not quite get 500, but it just wasn't there, just not enough cam. Definition of mixed emotions – like watching John Elway not know how to react when Tim Tebow did something good. But to even get this close with a 227/236 cam is really awesome, and I doubt it would be possible without the MMS 220 heads because the airflow to get us there certainly didn't come from the cam!
In fact, when I called Tony recently about the results, he was thrilled but of course also bummed that we didn't hit the magic 5XX figure....his guess was another 4 degrees of cam timing would have done it but with milled heads the P to V is starting to get really tight there. And I LOVE how it drives with the small cam....it has huge power everywhere and is explosive at any RPM which I think you would miss with a larger cam potentially. I plan to take some short videos later on and post them, but I can drive 50 MPH in 6th with no bucking, 45 in 6th with very minor bucking. I can do fourth at 20, like when the skip shift used to kick it over, and it just pulls out of it. I’ve done 5th at 30, but that’s about when the drivetrain starts to complain.
We tried moving the timing in half-degree increments, minor tweaking of fuel. Ran best at about 12.5 AFR at peak TQ and right at 13 for peak HP. Pulled all the way to 7,000 to see the peak and slow roll off. I’m really happy with the power curve and it feels just as insane in the car as this graph would indicate pulling like a freight train to 7000 RPM. You’ll see it when I post the pulls. I’m going to grab a first, second, and third gear pull, because words just don’t convey it. After I do something to kill some of the exhaust noise.
So, hats off to Tony for figuring out how to make a smaller cam deliver with yet another example of his highly optimized combinations. There were hundreds of details I missed the first time I built it, and they all added up. When I first called him up, he said he wanted to swing for the fences with this build, and As the parts started adding up, I got nervous about money. And no lie, it costs, but the memory of the pain of the cost dies down pretty quickly. I daily drive this build, and I doubt a donkey-dick cam would be nearly as fun to drive everyday, which was a major goal of this build – more important than the power.
Btw, it was weeks of playing with idle settings just to get it to only surge a few hundred RPM at red lights, and another few weeks to finally get a stable idle. I can't imagine getting a larger cam to settle down and idle with a light clutch, it would be alot of work. What's funny is that the lighter clutch had more to do with hurting the idle than the heads did. It was idling good at 925, but installing the clutch made it so responsive, small moves in the IAC would just throw it for a loop, so I had to figure out how to make the IAC settle down. Weird to describe, but the motor reacts to the IAC faster than the IAC reacts to the motor.
So, there are really only two things limiting the car right now - the cam is limiting getting more air into (and out of) the engine at this point and TRACTION. It's one thing to smoke the tires on gear shifts, but this is entirely different. I take first or second up to 5,000 rpm under load, and the tires break loose. And that's not even WOT. I can't engage too hard in first or second, the car just spins. Then, third will still sometimes break them loose under WOT load, which still scares the crap out of me - going sideways at 110. I can chirp fourth gear if I dump it on a high RPM shift. Hankook Ventus 305's if that matters at all.
So, next steps. First of all, I recently discovered, I’m officially public enemy number 1 due to waking up kids at 6am when I drive to work for about a half mile radius around my house. So, I have to park the car until I quiet it down. I’ve had threats to call the police, or dump sand in the gas tank, etc. Sucks, but I guess I understand (a little).
I don't want to put stickier shoes on until the rear and driveshaft can handle it. Might as well gear it to get into the higher RPMs sooner while i'm in there, so I'm thinking 3.89 ratio. Then, I've just installed a tubular front end (K and control arms by PA Racing) I picked up from a user on Tech, along with adjustable trailing arms. Already have the BMR adjustable panhard and brace relocation kit installed to clearance for the kooks duals. Have to decide on the torque arm as well, subframe connectors, and anything else I need to hook the power. Side story, took it for alignment after I put the new K on, and it was a total Ferris Bueller thing. The tech took my car for a twenty minute drive, and I realized for the first time how loud it really is under load.
All in all the car is a freakin blast to drive if not a little scary. Sorry for the long-*** post. Lots of excitement on this end of the internet. Also, sorry it took so long for the update, life just gets in the way sometimes!
03-05-2016, 11:30 PM
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Here's the wrinkled *** sheet from my pocket. You can see how much cleaner this one pulled vs the last one on the overlay
03-06-2016, 01:14 AM
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Damn dynos. They have a way of exciting and letting you down all in one pull. You know what you have though and it's a monster on the street. That's a very impressive number for that small cam. Congrats!
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03-06-2016, 09:28 AM
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500HP - Missed it by THAT much 
That's some impressive numbers .I cheaped out and bought the 225's should have went with mamos heads .I'm probably going to start part collecting for my 1969 Nova this year .Building a LQ4 with a set of twins should be a fun project
Last edited by BlackVortex; 03-06-2016 at 10:31 AM.
03-06-2016, 09:33 AM
#10
Awesome results! So close! What an awesome build. To get 500 rear wheel hp Daily Driver out of a 346 stock bottom is awesome. The torque is just insane too, it's basically a straight line of fun. On street tires must be like being on ice skates lol.
Just throw some cutouts on. They'll probably be quieter than the kooks exhaust so I hear lol.
Congrats on the numbers. Great build!
Just throw some cutouts on. They'll probably be quieter than the kooks exhaust so I hear lol.
Congrats on the numbers. Great build!
03-06-2016, 09:38 AM
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03-06-2016, 09:38 AM
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03-06-2016, 12:55 PM
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That's awesome. I wouldn't sweat it. If you take to another dyno you might make less and with a different dyno break that benchmark. You're in the park and that's where the carnival and fun is. Could be interesting where I end up as Tony set me up with a little bigger 235/240 cam. I don't have any more problem driving it than I did with a smaller 228/232 before the stroker build.
FWIW you may have an issue with the out of WOT tuning. I have 3.91 gears but I can run in 6th at 40 MPH without any bucking. As a frame of reference my no buck 4th is 1,400 RPM. My smaller cam when it was a 346 could even go a little lower
FWIW you may have an issue with the out of WOT tuning. I have 3.91 gears but I can run in 6th at 40 MPH without any bucking. As a frame of reference my no buck 4th is 1,400 RPM. My smaller cam when it was a 346 could even go a little lower
Last edited by svede1212; 03-06-2016 at 01:13 PM.
03-06-2016, 08:48 PM
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You guys are right. It's like that opening scene in wolf of wall street. "I made $50M last year and was pissed, because I didn't get 52 - a million a week"
No, I'm very happy. It would have been great to punch a number, but if I had to sacrifice driving it to hit a number, I'd rather be able to drive it.
It won't matter after I gear the rear anyway. It'll dyno lower on the 3.89 VS stock 3.46.
No, I'm very happy. It would have been great to punch a number, but if I had to sacrifice driving it to hit a number, I'd rather be able to drive it.
It won't matter after I gear the rear anyway. It'll dyno lower on the 3.89 VS stock 3.46.
Last edited by Darth_V8r; 03-06-2016 at 09:26 PM.
03-06-2016, 10:59 PM
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Those are damn impressive numbers! I can't wait to get all the tuning finish on my car so I can post a decent dyno sheet! Great job!
And I feel your pain on the traction issue. I need to find a stickier tire... I run Bridgestone RE-11's (275/35/18) and I can break the tires loose with 36% throttle in first. Before my build I could almost dead hook in first gear.
Let me know how you are going to quite the car down -- I need to do the same!
And I feel your pain on the traction issue. I need to find a stickier tire... I run Bridgestone RE-11's (275/35/18) and I can break the tires loose with 36% throttle in first. Before my build I could almost dead hook in first gear.
Let me know how you are going to quite the car down -- I need to do the same!