ARP Head Stud Problem, and Solution
Head Stud Installation Method HI All, yes I too agree with the 75-80 value.
MY information was taken from my grandfathers engineering books, he built bridges in PA.
ARP can make mistakes as I do from my incorrect memory.
NOW my "memory" ALSO states the SAME PROBLEM found by members regarding ARP MAIN STUD Torque Values.
Thread pitch, nut/stud, has a great effect on Torque Specifications.
The steel material alloy has great effect on breakage, the higher Grade #10 will break wherein a lower grade alloy will stretch (yield) to match the AL growth.
This case was a bit of luck as he didn't "pull" the block threads.
Lance
MY information was taken from my grandfathers engineering books, he built bridges in PA.
ARP can make mistakes as I do from my incorrect memory.
NOW my "memory" ALSO states the SAME PROBLEM found by members regarding ARP MAIN STUD Torque Values.
Thread pitch, nut/stud, has a great effect on Torque Specifications.
The steel material alloy has great effect on breakage, the higher Grade #10 will break wherein a lower grade alloy will stretch (yield) to match the AL growth.
This case was a bit of luck as he didn't "pull" the block threads.
Lance
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,151
Likes: 64
From: Saskatchewan, Canada - where arguing "DA" is for the slow and weak...
As for the Grade 12.9 vs 8740 alloy discussion as it relates to tensile strength, material stretch and fatigue, and block material thermal expansion? I cannot honestly say. It seems that ARP makes this stuff up as they go. And clearly, if you find the material limit of their product they change their story.
Ever notice the disclaimer about only using the specs provided with the ARP bolts based upon date of manufacture/time of purchase? We had better hold on to those little slips of paper if we ever plan to reuse them.
Caution:
All material included in this chart is advisory only, and its use by anyone is voluntary. In developing this information, Fastenal has made a determined effort to present its contents accurately. Extreme caution should be used when using a formula for torque/tension relationships. Torque is only an indirect indication of tension. Under/over tightening of fasteners can re
sult in costly equipment failure or personal injury.
All material included in this chart is advisory only, and its use by anyone is voluntary. In developing this information, Fastenal has made a determined effort to present its contents accurately. Extreme caution should be used when using a formula for torque/tension relationships. Torque is only an indirect indication of tension. Under/over tightening of fasteners can re
sult in costly equipment failure or personal injury.
The reason for M11 bolts not being listed? Probably has something to do with GM making **** up to suit an application. That being said, for the purposes of "a rule of thumb/better sense" approach you can take the suggested lubricated values for the M10 (~55ft/bs) and the M12 (~95ft/lbs) add them together and divide by two: 75ft/lbs. That sure isn't 100ft/bs wet. Even if you consider a +/- 5ft/lb window on the torque spec.
As for the Grade 12.9 vs 8740 alloy discussion as it relates to tensile strength, material stretch and fatigue, and block material thermal expansion? I cannot honestly say. It seems that ARP makes this stuff up as they go. And clearly, if you find the material limit of their product they change their story.
Ever notice the disclaimer about only using the specs provided with the ARP bolts based upon date of manufacture/time of purchase? We had better hold on to those little slips of paper if we ever plan to reuse them.
If you really need a specific answer to this question as to how to calculate these head bolts specs I will engage my brother, an engineer supporting both the auto and aerospace industries.
As for the Grade 12.9 vs 8740 alloy discussion as it relates to tensile strength, material stretch and fatigue, and block material thermal expansion? I cannot honestly say. It seems that ARP makes this stuff up as they go. And clearly, if you find the material limit of their product they change their story.
Ever notice the disclaimer about only using the specs provided with the ARP bolts based upon date of manufacture/time of purchase? We had better hold on to those little slips of paper if we ever plan to reuse them.
If you really need a specific answer to this question as to how to calculate these head bolts specs I will engage my brother, an engineer supporting both the auto and aerospace industries.
ARP has a link for general torque values based on size and material. Probably a better resource for ARP products when in doubt.
General Torque Values
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,151
Likes: 64
From: Saskatchewan, Canada - where arguing "DA" is for the slow and weak...
I'm just asking how you relate the link you posted to ARP fasteners. According to that link, I'm seeing the M10 lubricated torque is 46.7ft-lbs and M12 is 81.4ft-lbs for 12.9 class bolts. Average those two value as you suggest and I get 64ft-lbs.
ARP has a link for general torque values based on size and material. Probably a better resource for ARP products when in doubt.
General Torque Values
ARP has a link for general torque values based on size and material. Probably a better resource for ARP products when in doubt.
General Torque Values
And I agree, the company should know its business best.
Not trying to hijack the thread or anything, just wondering on this.
Also, for the issue at hand. I think torquing them to 100 ft lbs may of been the issue. I have snapped ARP heads studs due to torque wrench being not calibrated and being 15 ft lbs over what it actually said it was, so in reality they were torqued to 95 ft lbs when they snapped. I should say only 1 snapped.
Last edited by 07NBSChevy; Jan 26, 2017 at 02:58 AM.
Question on this, When I spoke to ARP about my ARP Pro 2000 head studs, they told me to add their fastener lube to the nut face, threads, as well as both sides of the washer and torque the studs to 80 ft lbs on the larger ones and 25 ft lbs on the smaller ones in 3 stages. The instructions stated this as well. I did this the way they told me, you think there would be an issue with this?
Question on this, When I spoke to ARP about my ARP Pro 2000 head studs, they told me to add their fastener lube to the nut face, threads, as well as both sides of the washer and torque the studs to 80 ft lbs on the larger ones and 25 ft lbs on the smaller ones in 3 stages.
You don't want the washer to turn. Lube between the nut face and washer because the nut turns against the washer face.
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Joined: Jul 2007
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From: Wilmington, De
How many of these are going to break before ARP admits that they have a material defect on their hands? For the past few months, it seems that more and more people have been posting up about breaking studs. It's cool that they are overnighting new **** to people, but God damn, find the batch numbers, get some data, and figure out what is going on so people don't have to keep extracting broken studs.
How many of these are going to break before ARP admits that they have a material defect on their hands? For the past few months, it seems that more and more people have been posting up about breaking studs. It's cool that they are overnighting new **** to people, but God damn, find the batch numbers, get some data, and figure out what is going on so people don't have to keep extracting broken studs.
agree.
some problems you can buy your way out of. some you can't...especially if the company provided the wrong torque value! ouch!
at least the china stud company is kind enough to omit any torque values or directions of any kind lol
some problems you can buy your way out of. some you can't...especially if the company provided the wrong torque value! ouch!
at least the china stud company is kind enough to omit any torque values or directions of any kind lol
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TECH Fanatic
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,803
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From: Wilmington, De
In this case, yes. In the many other recent cases? Maybe, if ARP did jump up the torque spec by 20 ft/lbs. There just seems to be a high amount of ARP bolts and studs breaking lately for them to chalk it up to a washer.
Head Stud Installation Method OK, we are now educated with respect to bolt/stud Torque Values.
I have designed head gaskets.
One method used to engineer forces was to place "paper" between the head and block/head-gasket-block.
This type of material produces color changes in the material with respect to force.
Would there be someone that would like to do that test and report to LS-1 Tech members ?
I will find the paper material.
Lance
I have designed head gaskets.
One method used to engineer forces was to place "paper" between the head and block/head-gasket-block.
This type of material produces color changes in the material with respect to force.
Would there be someone that would like to do that test and report to LS-1 Tech members ?
I will find the paper material.
Lance
OK, we are now educated with respect to bolt/stud Torque Values.
I have designed head gaskets.
One method used to engineer forces was to place "paper" between the head and block/head-gasket-block.
This type of material produces color changes in the material with respect to force.
Would there be someone that would like to do that test and report to LS-1 Tech members ?
I will find the paper material.
Lance
I have designed head gaskets.
One method used to engineer forces was to place "paper" between the head and block/head-gasket-block.
This type of material produces color changes in the material with respect to force.
Would there be someone that would like to do that test and report to LS-1 Tech members ?
I will find the paper material.
Lance
I found some paper at Office Depot that I think would work. It's similar to receipt paper in a credit card machine that responds to pressure. It's not as good as some other more specialized products that the manufacturers use, but I could probably give it a shot if I can get my block surfaced this weekend. I'll try to give you a call tomorrow.
Also, I got in touch with someone from ARP about the new installation instructions. He's confirmed that the interface between the washer and cylinder head spot face need to be clean and dry, and that there's been an adjustment to the torque specs, but didn't give a reason. Hopefully I can get more info from him and report back.