408 stroker rotating assembly question's? - LS1TECH - Camaro and Firebird Forum Discussion



Generation III Internal Engine 1997-2006 LS1 | LS6
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

408 stroker rotating assembly question's?

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-11-2017, 07:46 PM   #1
Teching In
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 28
Question 408 stroker rotating assembly question's?

I was wondering what you N/A guys are using for a street car that will be a daily! What crank for a 408...atm leaning Callies Compstar, Rod's Not sure i am thinking either Compstar again or K1 would going with I Beam's instead of H be a good idea? I don't want to add a power adder i already have a set of 243's i want to send in to be Cnc'd eventually or should i go with ls3 or ls7 small bore...or try to find some used aftermarket ones? As far as piston's i need to figure out what cc i need and which material is the best for daily use i hear a lot of good things about wiseco! I want this car to have atleast 500rwhp i was going to use a 4l80e, thinking about just grabbing a t56 instead! It is going into this 72 Nova i have a used vintage A/C kit that came with the car!
Attached Thumbnails
408 stroker rotating assembly question's?-16991683_10158331164490343_9122939206223111521_o.jpg   408 stroker rotating assembly question's?-16706724_10158236668805343_1474679083_n.jpg   408 stroker rotating assembly question's?-00i0i_5ise6ej9zm5_600x450.jpg   408 stroker rotating assembly question's?-17218299_10158385754855343_3507388906933625936_o.jpg   408 stroker rotating assembly question's?-17157736_10158386011390343_6063489001864617908_o.jpg  

408 stroker rotating assembly question's?-17158966_10158386011055343_2654945088062994334_o.jpg  

Last edited by Crazyb434; 03-11-2017 at 08:00 PM.
Crazyb434 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2017, 08:08 PM   #2
Super Hulk Smash
iTrader: (7)
 
JakeFusion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pace, FL
Posts: 10,032
Default

Molnar Crank and the Molnar Turbo Stroker rods. A little less than Compstar and about the same price as K1.

Tom Molnar worked at Oliver for a long time, formed K1, and now has Molnar Technologies. He is still using Chinese forgings and US finish with his design (K1 is a similar design). But apparently, they use a different foundry and hold them to a tighter spec. For the price, it's the best crank and rods in terms of the tolerances, hardening process, and raw material quality. He also has custom spec ARP rod bolts for his connecting rods.

I think Compstar is a close second because of the Callies hardened process on the cranks.

But certainly, any of those three would be good. I would not spend more the $1000 on the crank or $650 on the rods. You'll have plenty to work with for that price.

Hell, I wouldn't spend more than $2200 on the Crank/Rods/Pistons/Rings. You can get exactly what you need under that price with either Diamond or Wiseco pistons. And both come with the wrist pins and rings for that $700-800 range with moly coated skirts.
JakeFusion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2017, 08:16 PM   #3
TECH Resident
iTrader: (34)
 
BlackDuk98's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Cleveland Ohio
Posts: 882
Default

I'm running Callie's compstar crank and rods (h beam) which I have seen people run over 1000 fwhp and a few 1000 rwhp. I'm also running wiseco Pistons but upgraded the wrist pins to tool steel. All in a 408 which made 450/430 with horribly small heads, power robbing th400 and 9" rear. I have since upgraded to a set of killer heads so new numbers won't be in for months.

Running 11.0 cr before and it was fine for the street. Now will be 11.5 cr on 93 pump gas. Would be fine for street driving w/ 3600 stall converter

Love the yenko clone
BlackDuk98 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2017, 08:57 PM   #4
Teching In
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 28
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeFusion View Post
Molnar Crank and the Molnar Turbo Stroker rods. A little less than Compstar and about the same price as K1.

Tom Molnar worked at Oliver for a long time, formed K1, and now has Molnar Technologies. He is still using Chinese forgings and US finish with his design (K1 is a similar design). But apparently, they use a different foundry and hold them to a tighter spec. For the price, it's the best crank and rods in terms of the tolerances, hardening process, and raw material quality. He also has custom spec ARP rod bolts for his connecting rods.

I think Compstar is a close second because of the Callies hardened process on the cranks.

But certainly, any of those three would be good. I would not spend more the $1000 on the crank or $650 on the rods. You'll have plenty to work with for that price.

Hell, I wouldn't spend more than $2200 on the Crank/Rods/Pistons/Rings. You can get exactly what you need under that price with either Diamond or Wiseco pistons. And both come with the wrist pins and rings for that $700-800 range with moly coated skirts.
Jake you know i had read that and forgot about Molnar! I think that sounds like the best bet! Anyone who worked for Oliver rod's not to mention better tolerances and actual metal used sounds like the best for my budget! I appreciate that. What would u use for piston's 2618 would be fine for daily use diamond vs wiseco...also what cc i want to get the most out of it i can squeeze while being reliable to some extent not looking for 100k miles but you know lol! I am planning to run 93 octane not sure which way with piston's i should go because i am unsure of the heads at this point!

Last edited by Crazyb434; 03-11-2017 at 09:05 PM.
Crazyb434 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2017, 08:59 PM   #5
Teching In
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 28
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackDuk98 View Post
I'm running Callie's compstar crank and rods (h beam) which I have seen people run over 1000 fwhp and a few 1000 rwhp. I'm also running wiseco Pistons but upgraded the wrist pins to tool steel. All in a 408 which made 450/430 with horribly small heads, power robbing th400 and 9" rear. I have since upgraded to a set of killer heads so new numbers won't be in for months.

Running 11.0 cr before and it was fine for the street. Now will be 11.5 cr on 93 pump gas. Would be fine for street driving w/ 3600 stall converter

Love the yenko clone
11.5-11.7 was what i was thinking! How do you like the wiseco piston's? What heads do you recommend i look out for? Would the 243's be good cnc'd by AI etc or someone reputable or should i spend a few more on some aftermarket?
Crazyb434 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2017, 09:01 PM   #6
Teching In
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 28
Default

Oh and thank's didn't really see the clone statement thank's a lot bud! It's my first muscle car build and trying to make a screaming daily lol!
Crazyb434 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2017, 09:10 PM   #7
Teching In
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 28
Default

oh yea u said 3600 stall...so u vote 4l80e vs t56 i have one here i can get for 400 or some labor i'll owe to my dad it's a 91 was rebuilt but just stock it's still in the 454 van in my yard being used for storage! lol
Crazyb434 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2017, 09:33 PM   #8
TECH Resident
iTrader: (34)
 
BlackDuk98's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Cleveland Ohio
Posts: 882
Default

I have had zero problems with the wiseco Pistons or any of the rotating assembly. I had problems with rocker and lifters which has kept me from driving it. A little over 2000 miles so far.

I reccomend getting a billet reluctor wheel. I had the factory one come loose after 90 miles. I think it was soposed to have .007 interference fit but found out it had .003. I had the billet wheel welded on, made sure it ran true in the spec range, and crank rebalanced.

I cannot remember how much the block was decked off the top of my head (somewhere written down) but it was either .002 or .005. Which made my wiseco -8cc piston come out of the deck .003. After going with the proper quench that Tony Mamo reccomended, I ended up with a .040 thick gasket and 63cc heads. MMS 235 NFI heads is what I have now. I was running PRC stage 2.5 CNC ls6 heads with heavy valves which showed up on the dyno with some valve float at 6500 plus and heads were just too small for the motor which I knew going into the build but really realized it later lol. Buy good once, it's cheaper.

I went with lunati high rpm linkbar lifters because I run the car hard and didn't want to run the plastic lifter trays in case they came apart and allowed the lifters to spin. Stage 5 Manton 11/32 .120 wall pushrods and custom specd cam from EPS. ATI super damper.

every bolt is ARP, when I open the motor up again in the future, I will add a crank scraper. JP double roller timing chain. If I wanted another 10 hp, I would get a fast 102 setup, but I currently have a 92 setup. Car will be forced induction in the future so intake will change.

Purchased some nice tools to make the job easier, crank holding tool from a board member, front and rear cover alignment tools from board sponsors, multiple pullers, made a bunch of tools and adapters aswell. I have a huge drawer in my toolbox dedicated to just LS motors.

Should be a good motor once I get it all back together in the next few months. Tried to purchase really nice parts, went way over my expected budget lol

Last edited by BlackDuk98; 03-11-2017 at 09:48 PM.
BlackDuk98 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2017, 09:41 PM   #9
TECH Resident
iTrader: (34)
 
BlackDuk98's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Cleveland Ohio
Posts: 882
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazyb434 View Post
oh yea u said 3600 stall...so u vote 4l80e vs t56 i have one here i can get for 400 or some labor i'll owe to my dad it's a 91 was rebuilt but just stock it's still in the 454 van in my yard being used for storage! lol
I went with a th400 for strength and simplicity. 4l80s are tough for sure, I've sold a bunch of them, but I have many th400s in reserve and a lot of racers run them and I figured that if I needed to change torque converters, it's easy to sell since there are so many more 400s out there. But I do have 4l80 drum in mine. Next trans will come from Rossler since they are local to me. I went auto to be quicker also. I think a 4l80 weighs around 175 and a th400 weighs around 135. I was thinking about weight, but my iron block added an extra 100lbs in the nose. So weight reduction is in the forecast.

Last edited by BlackDuk98; 03-11-2017 at 09:53 PM.
BlackDuk98 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2017, 10:32 PM   #10
Teching In
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 28
Default

Thanks bud i want to be quick from a roll with a t56 i think i would be good but from a dig with a street car i would get owned lol! I hear a t56 is a lot more fun but i dunno! Would the th400 be good for daily driving and long 4-5 hour trips i want to drive it to the beach! I know it wouldn't get the same gas mileage i am not wanting 20 mpg but don't think it would be fun if i got 8mpg highway lol
Crazyb434 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2017, 11:01 PM   #11
Super Hulk Smash
iTrader: (7)
 
JakeFusion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pace, FL
Posts: 10,032
Default

T56 would be more fun.

I think both the Wiseco and Diamond pistons are awesome. The R1 Street series of Diamond is a little cheaper than the shelf Wisecos. The Diamond R1 Race series are about the same cost as the Wiseco shelf pistons and are inboard forgings - to they are a little heavier but really strong. The R1 Street (PN 11519-R1 w/2cc Valve Relief) is only 412g. It's damn light. I'd probably go with that as my first choice. Then run a 67-70cc head depending on exactly where you want your compression. The Wiseco shelf is 481g.

If you were going to run a lot of nitrous, I'd do 11572-R1 from Diamond, which is the Inboard/strutted Forging. It's 429g. I'd probably go ahead and do the Tool Steel wrist pins with any of them. Wiseco says to upgrade at 700HP. I figure for $150 or so, and little added weight, use the better material to keep the piston secured to the rod. In the grand scheme of things, it's just a few bucks. But Diamond includes a .185" wall pin. Wiseco has a .150" wall pin. Both 8620 material. So the Diamond would be stronger in a .927" pin all else being equal. The H13 from Wiseco is a .200" wall pin tho. The Trend H-13s that Diamond offers are the .185" in the Street Series and .225" in the Race (or whatever you want really).

But they all include 2618 forging, 1.2mm stainless rings, coated skirts, etc. You can run the newer 2618 forgings pretty close piston to wall to avoid some of the wear issues that used to plague them. If you wanted 100k miles out of a built motor, you had to go with 4032 alloy to have a chance. Now I think the newer 2618 forgings could get you there if setup right. And are a hell of a lot stronger.

Also, here's a picture of the Diamond Race vs Street. About $110 difference in cost (because Diamond's website sucks and had to get all this info from a dealer):



Last edited by JakeFusion; 03-11-2017 at 11:36 PM.
JakeFusion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2017, 11:27 PM   #12
TECH Resident
iTrader: (34)
 
BlackDuk98's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Cleveland Ohio
Posts: 882
Default

I agree, t56 would be more fun, but I just wanted to be as quick as I could. Th400 is fine for the street. They were good for many trucks, impalas, etc. for over 50 years. If I run the car aggressive, I get around 12 mpg if I remember correctly. Both my 6.0l 4l80e plow trucks get 9mpg though lol

I cannot add anything regarding diamond Pistons, I have never used them and have nothing bad to say about them. It was hard for me to decide between the 2 brands. Jake has put some good info up. All I can say is first figure out exactly what you want to do with the motor, and then a whole lot of research

Last edited by BlackDuk98; 03-11-2017 at 11:37 PM.
BlackDuk98 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2017, 11:39 PM   #13
Super Hulk Smash
iTrader: (7)
 
JakeFusion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pace, FL
Posts: 10,032
Default

I added a little more on the wrist pins. For the cash, the shelf R Street pistons are really hard to beat. Seriously. They are stocking at nearly $180 less than Wiseco. And are lighter. Have Stainless Coated top ring packages, and more robust pins. And now include the graphite coated skirts (something Wiseco always had as a leg up). Wiseco still has a lot more options from a shelf perspective. But if you're building a motor from the ground up, you can select a flat top and the right head to get to where you want compression-wise.
JakeFusion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2017, 11:58 PM   #14
Teching In
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 28
Default

Thanks guys i really appreciate! jake i had read a lot of your post's thanks for the info! i think i will go with the Diamond race thanks for the info bro!
Crazyb434 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2017, 11:59 PM   #15
Teching In
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 28
Default

Do you know the part number jake lol!
Crazyb434 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2017, 12:17 AM   #16
Super Hulk Smash
iTrader: (7)
 
JakeFusion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pace, FL
Posts: 10,032
Default

I post the flat tops in my previous post: 11572-R1
JakeFusion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2017, 01:00 AM   #17
Teching In
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 28
Default

Sorry Jake too many beers lol! where would u set the compression for a daily on 93 without leaving much on the table? Thanks for all your help!

Last edited by Crazyb434; 03-12-2017 at 07:58 AM.
Crazyb434 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2017, 01:02 AM   #18
Teching In
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 28
Default

Maybe too many questions in one night lol! i hope you will help me on a few other questions along the way i will give it a rest for the night have a good weekend fellas thanks again!
Crazyb434 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2017, 09:36 AM   #19
Super Hulk Smash
iTrader: (7)
 
JakeFusion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pace, FL
Posts: 10,032
Default

11.5:1-11.8:1 is what I'd target depending on how much cam you have. A lot of cam might want 12:1. But I think right around 11.7:1 will produce good results.
JakeFusion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2017, 10:41 AM   #20
Teching In
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 28
Default

Thanks again man!
Crazyb434 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Callie's Dragon slayer crank...... Ron_Stoppable Forced Induction 10 11-07-2016 09:29 PM
First Boosted Ls GtoProject Forced Induction 33 09-26-2016 11:14 AM
Cam recommendation for 408 and heavy 4x4 application busted33 Generation III Internal Engine 10 07-24-2016 08:13 PM
Another cam recommendation request with a twist busted33 Generation V Internal Engine 1 07-22-2016 07:22 AM
New HKE WCCH LS3 Heads 408 N2O motor axe murderer Parts Classifieds 1 10-16-2015 02:19 PM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:41 AM.


 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: