need to find a new engine block?
07-16-2017, 09:21 PM
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need to find a new engine block? Hey guys, just got my block from the machine shop not too long ago. Had it honed by them because I assumed they would do a better job than I, and had them clean, it inspect it and install cam bearings. After inspecting it myself upon receiving it back, the hone was complete garbage and not what I requested but what they insisted I needed (no crosshatching), cam bearings were a bit scuffed up but maybe that is fine, and I found nicks on a cylinder wall which I hadn't yet noticed before. I called them to rehone it (before i noticed everything else), but do you guys think I am gonna have to get a new block with nicks this deep into the cylinder? I don't recall seeing them before but there is a chance I overlooked them. However, if I asked the shop to inspect the block and make sure it was all fine, shouldn't they have told me about this if it is was there prior? I distinctly asked them to make sure everything was to spec and usable before doing ANY work. I can post pictures of the hone job they did and their reasoning behind that too if you all are interested. See attachments below.
07-17-2017, 09:23 PM
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Yes, please tell us why they insisted on no cross hatching. I'd like to hear this one. In my opinion, what you have there will destroy your rings and piston skirts pretty quick.
07-18-2017, 04:12 PM
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The block is getting sleeved on that one cylinder (an extra 100$ out of my pocket), and I have them fixing the hone and bearings I already paid for (literally the only reason I went back). I know the sleeve isn't optimal but it's most price effective for me. This machine shop insists that "ls engines have a "chrome top ring" and that they need around a 400-500 grit finish on the hone and no cross hatching to seat properly. He originally said the same about "moly rings". I never told him what rings I was going to be running, just that they suggested no more than a 320 grit finish. The guy claims he has done "hundreds" of the "late model motors" that came though the shop that way and insists that that's what they need to run. Later, I actually found others who had them built by this shop and none of them ever ran properly and all have had oil control problems... i now know why. Anyway when I dropped it off the first time, I paid extra to have them clean and inspect everything prior. I distinctly requested that they not do any work prior if anything was out of spec. Before I sent it to the shop I had another friend who does machine work inspect it (he works on diesel boats though). Neither of us saw any nicks on the cylinder walls. My piston from that cylinder were fine too but the shop insisted it was there when I brought it. When I asked about my request of him not doing any work if he found other stuff out of wack, and when I asked why he didn't tell me about the nick if it was there prior I got no response. I really regret going there to begin with and only sent my block back because I had already paid to have work done that wasn't done right the first time. As a college kid, I can't afford to pay to have stuff done twice, especially not when it should have been done right the first time. They agreed to rehone to the specs of my ring supplier (240 grit with 45 degree cross hatching) but he still wanted to argue over the "chrome top rings" that I am not even running, and insisted that it would be on me when it didn't run right.
07-18-2017, 07:45 PM
#7
That looks horrible as everyone else mentioned. It looks just like the junk the owner of a local shop in Belmont N.C. used to build. The constantly changing "facts" sound like him too. He would the skip honing step. His engines would run a few hundred or a few thousand miles before breaking the rings etc. He moved to Florida and this looks like his work or someone just like him.
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07-18-2017, 10:20 PM
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The block is getting sleeved on that one cylinder (an extra 100$ out of my pocket), and I have them fixing the hone and bearings I already paid for (literally the only reason I went back). I know the sleeve isn't optimal but it's most price effective for me. This machine shop insists that "ls engines have a "chrome top ring" and that they need around a 400-500 grit finish on the hone and no cross hatching to seat properly. He originally said the same about "moly rings". I never told him what rings I was going to be running, just that they suggested no more than a 320 grit finish. The guy claims he has done "hundreds" of the "late model motors" that came though the shop that way and insists that that's what they need to run. Later, I actually found others who had them built by this shop and none of them ever ran properly and all have had oil control problems... i now know why. Anyway when I dropped it off the first time, I paid extra to have them clean and inspect everything prior. I distinctly requested that they not do any work prior if anything was out of spec. Before I sent it to the shop I had another friend who does machine work inspect it (he works on diesel boats though). Neither of us saw any nicks on the cylinder walls. My piston from that cylinder were fine too but the shop insisted it was there when I brought it. When I asked about my request of him not doing any work if he found other stuff out of wack, and when I asked why he didn't tell me about the nick if it was there prior I got no response. I really regret going there to begin with and only sent my block back because I had already paid to have work done that wasn't done right the first time. As a college kid, I can't afford to pay to have stuff done twice, especially not when it should have been done right the first time. They agreed to rehone to the specs of my ring supplier (240 grit with 45 degree cross hatching) but he still wanted to argue over the "chrome top rings" that I am not even running, and insisted that it would be on me when it didn't run right.
It's getting harder and harder to find a descent local shop these days. This stinks...
07-18-2017, 10:59 PM
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That looks horrible as everyone else mentioned. It looks just like the junk the owner of a local shop in Belmont N.C. used to build. The constantly changing "facts" sound like him too. He would the skip honing step. His engines would run a few hundred or a few thousand miles before breaking the rings etc. He moved to Florida and this looks like his work or someone just like him.
07-18-2017, 11:08 PM
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Do you have any pics of the other cylinders? Were they all this way? What's concerning here is that the shop has already so called "honed" the cylinders to size. When they do another hone, you will likely be oversized a few thousandths.
It's getting harder and harder to find a descent local shop these days. This stinks...
It's getting harder and harder to find a descent local shop these days. This stinks...
07-19-2017, 01:03 AM
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In my opinion. It is best to pick up your block, get as much money back as possible, and take it somewhere else.
If the block is standard, it would be silly to jump straight to a sleeve if you don't have to. Sleeve installation can distort the next cylinder over depending on a few variables (amount of press fit, casting thickness, etc.). That means there is a possibility it will have to be taken to the next overbore anyways (due to the distorted cylinder(s)). Which means the additional cost of new pistons and transferring them to you're rods (if they're press fit type). Not to mention the decking charge that you might have been able to avoid (have to cut the top of the sleeve flush with the deck).
Its hard to tell you for sure from the pictures, but the marks don't look that bad. As far as the hone job goes, it's terrible. The crosshatch is there for a reason. It retains oil. There has to be an oil film layer between the rings and the cylinder bore. The angle of the crosshatch also plays a role in how the rings act. Different ring materials do require different cylinder bore finishes, but the grit of the stone is just a part of the equation.
If the block is standard, it would be silly to jump straight to a sleeve if you don't have to. Sleeve installation can distort the next cylinder over depending on a few variables (amount of press fit, casting thickness, etc.). That means there is a possibility it will have to be taken to the next overbore anyways (due to the distorted cylinder(s)). Which means the additional cost of new pistons and transferring them to you're rods (if they're press fit type). Not to mention the decking charge that you might have been able to avoid (have to cut the top of the sleeve flush with the deck).
Its hard to tell you for sure from the pictures, but the marks don't look that bad. As far as the hone job goes, it's terrible. The crosshatch is there for a reason. It retains oil. There has to be an oil film layer between the rings and the cylinder bore. The angle of the crosshatch also plays a role in how the rings act. Different ring materials do require different cylinder bore finishes, but the grit of the stone is just a part of the equation.
07-19-2017, 04:35 PM
#13
by any chance do you know what part of florida he moved to? This guy at this shop to came from somewhere to replace the previous guy who retired(I am assuming he retired at least). The previous guy did all my dad's work and even a couple things for me which was why I went there. regardless I won't be back
07-20-2017, 06:46 AM
#14
That looks horrible as everyone else mentioned. It looks just like the junk the owner of a local shop in Belmont N.C. used to build. The constantly changing "facts" sound like him too. He would the skip honing step. His engines would run a few hundred or a few thousand miles before breaking the rings etc. He moved to Florida and this looks like his work or someone just like him.
That said... I haven't heard of many decent machine shops in our area.
07-22-2017, 06:51 PM
#15
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Absolutely drives me crazy when a shop doesn't just do the job you've asked them to do. I've been building engines since I was 16 years old and I still get that.
I'm glad you got it corrected.
I'm glad you got it corrected.
07-23-2017, 10:23 AM
#18
A good cylinder finish is the product of a multi-step process. A "whatever" grit hone for the purpose of a new ring refresh, is really just a short term fix.
Proper boring, with the correct tooling pressure begins the micro-scopic oil holding cross hatch. Followed by three progressive stages of honing to get to the desired bore size then allows the rings to "seat" and seal off the combustion POP on the north side while controlling the oil lubricant on the south side.
One incredible thing to me is how good dyno operators will "LUG" or drag a fresh engine to better seat the rings. Making it work and create heat which pressurizes and/or forces the rings into the cross hatch as opposed to just "no work" free revving/racing it.
If that was my block I would have it bored and honed out to 4.065" and look for a good set of LS3 flat top pistons.
KCS has done one of those with pretty decent power numbers
Proper boring, with the correct tooling pressure begins the micro-scopic oil holding cross hatch. Followed by three progressive stages of honing to get to the desired bore size then allows the rings to "seat" and seal off the combustion POP on the north side while controlling the oil lubricant on the south side.
One incredible thing to me is how good dyno operators will "LUG" or drag a fresh engine to better seat the rings. Making it work and create heat which pressurizes and/or forces the rings into the cross hatch as opposed to just "no work" free revving/racing it.
If that was my block I would have it bored and honed out to 4.065" and look for a good set of LS3 flat top pistons.
KCS has done one of those with pretty decent power numbers
07-24-2017, 07:24 PM
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In my opinion. It is best to pick up your block, get as much money back as possible, and take it somewhere else.
If the block is standard, it would be silly to jump straight to a sleeve if you don't have to. Sleeve installation can distort the next cylinder over depending on a few variables (amount of press fit, casting thickness, etc.). That means there is a possibility it will have to be taken to the next overbore anyways (due to the distorted cylinder(s)). Which means the additional cost of new pistons and transferring them to you're rods (if they're press fit type). Not to mention the decking charge that you might have been able to avoid (have to cut the top of the sleeve flush with the deck).
Its hard to tell you for sure from the pictures, but the marks don't look that bad. As far as the hone job goes, it's terrible. The crosshatch is there for a reason. It retains oil. There has to be an oil film layer between the rings and the cylinder bore. The angle of the crosshatch also plays a role in how the rings act. Different ring materials do require different cylinder bore finishes, but the grit of the stone is just a part of the equation.
If the block is standard, it would be silly to jump straight to a sleeve if you don't have to. Sleeve installation can distort the next cylinder over depending on a few variables (amount of press fit, casting thickness, etc.). That means there is a possibility it will have to be taken to the next overbore anyways (due to the distorted cylinder(s)). Which means the additional cost of new pistons and transferring them to you're rods (if they're press fit type). Not to mention the decking charge that you might have been able to avoid (have to cut the top of the sleeve flush with the deck).
Its hard to tell you for sure from the pictures, but the marks don't look that bad. As far as the hone job goes, it's terrible. The crosshatch is there for a reason. It retains oil. There has to be an oil film layer between the rings and the cylinder bore. The angle of the crosshatch also plays a role in how the rings act. Different ring materials do require different cylinder bore finishes, but the grit of the stone is just a part of the equation.
I really hope it's fine when I get it back. Tomorrow or Wednesday is supposed to be my moment of truth. This block is a .030 over 6.0 and it is already prepped with arp main studs (I am not sure if I could swap them over with no machine work). I also haven't been able to find any iron 6.0's for sale locally for a good price. No bare blocks either. i am hoping since it is an iron block it won't be as sensitive to cylinder distortion. I didn't want it bored over anymore because I already have an expensive set of forged pistons that I got for a good deal. My piston ring supplier himself told me 240 grit at 45 degree would be optimal for the set I am going with. Maybe they'll get it right this time? I sure hope so. As I stated earlier, I sent it back because I can't really afford to have to pay to have stuff done twice. It should have been done right the first time.