Question on head bolts or studs
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 24,241
Likes: 89
From: Turnin' Wrenches Infractions: 005
Professional Motor Sports = Stud Use Hi All, I find it ODD when many here state "best" method THEN state "tech" with OPPOSITE remarks.
Those then state my "tech" in not understood without asking for a better explanation.
THEN they belittle us for trying to sell the answer, a quality product, and a lower cost product in most cases.
The ARP studs, when fitted, I MUST machine BEFORE use REQUIRED to make then "true".
Racing Engines/Racing Cars use studs in must cases.
This is required due to the repeated assembly/tear down that would damage the bolt hole threads in lite metals.
These fasteners are "trash caned" after being used (run) for a period of time, a hours of operation based record is kept.
I would like to add tech learned from NorthStar GM SC engine assemble.
The Head Gasket is similar to the LS-9 in the fact that it too seems to compress over time/heat cycles.
I used studs (ARP) with the torque sequence required repeated every four hours until the end of day.
Each time they were very loose.
I decided to "wrap" the complete engine with one of my tire blankets and let it sit (cook) over night.
The next day I let the engine cool, then did the "last" tightening, my hope.
I was correct with my guess.
Many machine shops "boil" the engine block before align bore/hone, etc.
The home assembly of an engine could use a similar method of a simple Electric Blanket "wrapped" engine to cause one heat cycle/warm the block/heads.
Would this be some new tech ?
Lance
Those then state my "tech" in not understood without asking for a better explanation.
THEN they belittle us for trying to sell the answer, a quality product, and a lower cost product in most cases.
The ARP studs, when fitted, I MUST machine BEFORE use REQUIRED to make then "true".
Racing Engines/Racing Cars use studs in must cases.
This is required due to the repeated assembly/tear down that would damage the bolt hole threads in lite metals.
These fasteners are "trash caned" after being used (run) for a period of time, a hours of operation based record is kept.
I would like to add tech learned from NorthStar GM SC engine assemble.
The Head Gasket is similar to the LS-9 in the fact that it too seems to compress over time/heat cycles.
I used studs (ARP) with the torque sequence required repeated every four hours until the end of day.
Each time they were very loose.
I decided to "wrap" the complete engine with one of my tire blankets and let it sit (cook) over night.
The next day I let the engine cool, then did the "last" tightening, my hope.
I was correct with my guess.
Many machine shops "boil" the engine block before align bore/hone, etc.
The home assembly of an engine could use a similar method of a simple Electric Blanket "wrapped" engine to cause one heat cycle/warm the block/heads.
Would this be some new tech ?
Lance
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 24,241
Likes: 89
From: Turnin' Wrenches Infractions: 005
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 310
Likes: 24
I would like anyone to actually show proof any of the suggest bolts actually failed to keep the head down. Unless your pushing 20 psi or more they all work fine...
However the cheap eBay studs have been known to bust when over torqued. I would stay away from them, but new oem bolts or arp stuts\bolts will be fine.
However the cheap eBay studs have been known to bust when over torqued. I would stay away from them, but new oem bolts or arp stuts\bolts will be fine.
Last edited by Paul Bell; Oct 31, 2017 at 08:28 PM.
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Head Studs = OK Hi ALL, I do my best NOT to insult the "general" LS-1 Tech members, just the few who provide poor tech.
They, the members, are here to learn.
My GUESS is that even if you ask a question to a "first poster" , he could answer this question: When a bolt/stud is installed AND "over-torqued" tightened in a way to damage this part, installation instructions not followed, who is at FAULT ?
NOW the good question by Stampede : The LS engine is assembled by Robots on a production line with equipment that requires calibration. That calibration frequency was found much lower, less repeat calibration required, when the torque-to-yeald fasteners were engineered for use in the modern engine. This engine is built to last the lifetime of cars federally required emission warranty, not much longer and not to be rebuilt.
The method used to tighten Rod Bolts is a "stretch" method with measurement of bolt length when tight.
When the bolt length specification is measured to be longer (when free), the bolt is trashed.
The use of fasteners in an engine/head made of Aluminum is much different than an Iron engine with different engineering required to MATCH the growth of the Aluminum.
Thus my "reuse" = NO
Measure your used head bolts AND give us that report ?
This above tech is NIST certified.
Lance
They, the members, are here to learn.
My GUESS is that even if you ask a question to a "first poster" , he could answer this question: When a bolt/stud is installed AND "over-torqued" tightened in a way to damage this part, installation instructions not followed, who is at FAULT ?
NOW the good question by Stampede : The LS engine is assembled by Robots on a production line with equipment that requires calibration. That calibration frequency was found much lower, less repeat calibration required, when the torque-to-yeald fasteners were engineered for use in the modern engine. This engine is built to last the lifetime of cars federally required emission warranty, not much longer and not to be rebuilt.
The method used to tighten Rod Bolts is a "stretch" method with measurement of bolt length when tight.
When the bolt length specification is measured to be longer (when free), the bolt is trashed.
The use of fasteners in an engine/head made of Aluminum is much different than an Iron engine with different engineering required to MATCH the growth of the Aluminum.
Thus my "reuse" = NO
Measure your used head bolts AND give us that report ?
This above tech is NIST certified.
Lance
For me if I was going to go aftermarket bolts/studs and didn't want to pay for ARP studs, I'd go for ARP bolts before going for china studs. The game i'm in teaches you paying the highest price the first time is far cheaper than buying the cheapest and then doing it again when the cheap **** fails. Just no point in chancing it IMO. Plus it's really hard to build your name and keep/earn customers if something fails. So saving a couple hundred dollars usually ends up costing thousands.
Couple of years ago I built a 667 rwhp (through a 3600 stall) 406 for a friend/customer with ARP head bolts, it did absolutely fine with them. Probably would have done fine with the OEM bolts too. It wasn't my choice to use them, I would have preferred ARP studs, but he strictly wanted me to use what he gave me to use. They were used too btw, not new.
Couple of years ago I built a 667 rwhp (through a 3600 stall) 406 for a friend/customer with ARP head bolts, it did absolutely fine with them. Probably would have done fine with the OEM bolts too. It wasn't my choice to use them, I would have preferred ARP studs, but he strictly wanted me to use what he gave me to use. They were used too btw, not new.
Last edited by 00pooterSS; Nov 1, 2017 at 10:14 AM.
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 24,241
Likes: 89
From: Turnin' Wrenches Infractions: 005
Hi reda4, thanks for your kind words.
NOW, my "tech" for the torquing method is as yours/GM with a LAST STEP #4 added.
That step is to "re-torque" the FIRST TWO center studs (1&2 middle) to 75+, just breaking sheer.
I find these two center studs at a lower value when this is done every time and know they should be brought back to 75.
NOW, my "tech" for the torquing method is as yours/GM with a LAST STEP #4 added.
That step is to "re-torque" the FIRST TWO center studs (1&2 middle) to 75+, just breaking sheer.
I find these two center studs at a lower value when this is done every time and know they should be brought back to 75.
ARP Quality Hi Reda4, I know why you report this DIFFERENCE, it is caused from the ARP LOW Quality machining standard.
I have a Hardinge Lath and use Collets to re-machine ARP Studs when fitted.
I have found about 20% as OUT of ROUND !
GOOD REPORT
Lance
I have a Hardinge Lath and use Collets to re-machine ARP Studs when fitted.
I have found about 20% as OUT of ROUND !
GOOD REPORT
Lance
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 24,241
Likes: 89
From: Turnin' Wrenches Infractions: 005
I also noticed, as I have used china studs a bunch of times recently, to be back in the hands of ARP, the quality IS much better then the china studs in that respect, just from an appearance standpoint if nothing else.
No one has even asked what the OP setup was. If it's a stock rebuild or a cam only setup stock head bolts are fine. If you are doing heads and cam and have the extra cash grab a set of Head bolts or even a lightly boosted setup buy atleast the head bolts. if your going for big power and a lot of boost then make sure you have a good block prep to have surface as even as possible and a set of studs should be needed. We have a 5.3 on 13lbs with ARP headbolts and don't lift a head, Also my personal ls1 I had with stock head bolts held down 16lbs from a s475 making around 800hp. Most people that lift heads under 20lbs or or less usually have bad block prep. Had a friend that was having issues holding a head down with bolts, then went to studs and still had issue so he went to 6bolt heads and still did it, turned out the block was not perfectly straight. So with that being said a head will always push water if the prep isn't done correctly.
