Question on head bolts or studs
Thread Starter
On The Tree
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
From: Cuba, MO
Question on head bolts or studs in reading a thread a bit ago in here about one of the members torqueing head bolts a tad too far and stock bolts being Torque to yield when I get ready to put heads on mine which ARP setup is better to go with or does it make a difference....Bolts or Studs?
TECH Junkie
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,913
Likes: 366
From: White Bear, Mn
I went with studs just for the simple fact you don't have to worry about pushing **** through a water jacket because the blind holes were not clean enough.
I found head studs easier and nicer to work with in every way
I found head studs easier and nicer to work with in every way
Studs = Block Life Hi Luke, I would use studs, my studs work in a way as do the stock OEM Bolts, they stretch correctly.
The reason for studs is block bolt thread life, with a bolt causing the block thread to wear.
Would you like a set ?
Lance
The reason for studs is block bolt thread life, with a bolt causing the block thread to wear.
Would you like a set ?
Lance
Thread Starter
On The Tree
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
From: Cuba, MO
Thanks for the offer Lance but im still in the "trying to figure shi*t out" stage right now. still got lots to figure out I was just more curious on if there was a huge difference in the bolt vs studs
Studs = Block Life Hi Luke, I do understand, it is good to do research first.
I OFFER, at no cost, an EAP Torque/HP report.
I would be able to answer more questions if asked, just PM you phone contact.
Good engineering is very cost effective.
Lance
I OFFER, at no cost, an EAP Torque/HP report.
I would be able to answer more questions if asked, just PM you phone contact.
Good engineering is very cost effective.
Lance
The OE bolts have higher tensile strength than cheap studs so ARP studs>ARP bolts>OE bolts>china ****
tensile test results in link
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...ngth-test.html
tensile test results in link
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...ngth-test.html
Trending Topics
Head Stud Tech Hi SS, good report.
The head studs tested china/oem bolts are equal in stretch, good for gasket life.
So I ASK, what are the last TWO studs to be torqued in order ?
Lance
The head studs tested china/oem bolts are equal in stretch, good for gasket life.
So I ASK, what are the last TWO studs to be torqued in order ?
Lance
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 24,241
Likes: 89
From: Turnin' Wrenches Infractions: 005
I also dont buy into some of these tests. There is no doubt in my mind in sheer strength the china studs are NOT the toughest thing out there. But bottom line is a ton of people have used them with success on boosted motors which are notorious for trying to lift heads. They plain work, and Im not an engineer so dont ask for a detailed explanation of why, cause I dont know.
Stud Torque Method Hi reda4, thanks for your kind words.
NOW, my "tech" for the torquing method is as yours/GM with a LAST STEP #4 added.
That step is to "re-torque" the FIRST TWO center studs (1&2 middle) to 75+, just breaking sheer.
I find these two center studs at a lower value when this is done every time and know they should be brought back to 75.
AGAIN I AGREE "China studs are NOT the toughest", a good thing in this case.
ARP sells "undercut" studs for Race Engines, none listed for common LS application.
I have fit ARP studs but ONLY after I undercut these items using my Hardinge Lath.
The reason is to allow stretch, a amount equal to the AL head expansion.
When this is NOT done, the head gasket is "squished" each time the engine goes from cold to hot.
That term is called Extruded, when the gasket becomes thinner after use.
The good report from "pooter" states the China/OEM fasteners have the same strength.
This is why GM designed their engine, some good engineering my guess,
to use a head bolt that matched the AL head expansion.
Did I do better this time ?
Lance
NOW, my "tech" for the torquing method is as yours/GM with a LAST STEP #4 added.
That step is to "re-torque" the FIRST TWO center studs (1&2 middle) to 75+, just breaking sheer.
I find these two center studs at a lower value when this is done every time and know they should be brought back to 75.
AGAIN I AGREE "China studs are NOT the toughest", a good thing in this case.
ARP sells "undercut" studs for Race Engines, none listed for common LS application.
I have fit ARP studs but ONLY after I undercut these items using my Hardinge Lath.
The reason is to allow stretch, a amount equal to the AL head expansion.
When this is NOT done, the head gasket is "squished" each time the engine goes from cold to hot.
That term is called Extruded, when the gasket becomes thinner after use.
The good report from "pooter" states the China/OEM fasteners have the same strength.
This is why GM designed their engine, some good engineering my guess,
to use a head bolt that matched the AL head expansion.
Did I do better this time ?
Lance
Not 100% sure what youre asking so i will clarify. When torquing studs, I generally follow ARPs torque figures, and follow GMs sequence. Which means first pass over all large studs are 25 Ft/lbs, in order 1-10, second pass 1-10 50 ft/lbs, third pass 75, then go to the 5 small studs and they get 22 ft/lbs. Hope this helps.
I also dont buy into some of these tests. There is no doubt in my mind in sheer strength the china studs are NOT the toughest thing out there. But bottom line is a ton of people have used them with success on boosted motors which are notorious for trying to lift heads. They plain work, and Im not an engineer so dont ask for a detailed explanation of why, cause I dont know.
I also dont buy into some of these tests. There is no doubt in my mind in sheer strength the china studs are NOT the toughest thing out there. But bottom line is a ton of people have used them with success on boosted motors which are notorious for trying to lift heads. They plain work, and Im not an engineer so dont ask for a detailed explanation of why, cause I dont know.
Hi reda4, thanks for your kind words.
NOW, my "tech" for the torquing method is as yours/GM with a LAST STEP #4 added.
That step is to "re-torque" the FIRST TWO center studs (1&2 middle) to 75+, just breaking sheer.
I find these two center studs at a lower value when this is done every time and know they should be brought back to 75.
AGAIN I AGREE "China studs are NOT the toughest", a good thing in this case.
ARP sells "undercut" studs for Race Engines, none listed for common LS application.
I have fit ARP studs but ONLY after I undercut these items using my Hardinge Lath.
The reason is to allow stretch, a amount equal to the AL head expansion.
When this is NOT done, the head gasket is "squished" each time the engine goes from cold to hot.
That term is called Extruded, when the gasket becomes thinner after use.
The good report from "pooter" states the China/OEM fasteners have the same strength.
This is why GM designed their engine, some good engineering my guess,
to use a head bolt that matched the AL head expansion.
Did I do better this time ?
Lance
NOW, my "tech" for the torquing method is as yours/GM with a LAST STEP #4 added.
That step is to "re-torque" the FIRST TWO center studs (1&2 middle) to 75+, just breaking sheer.
I find these two center studs at a lower value when this is done every time and know they should be brought back to 75.
AGAIN I AGREE "China studs are NOT the toughest", a good thing in this case.
ARP sells "undercut" studs for Race Engines, none listed for common LS application.
I have fit ARP studs but ONLY after I undercut these items using my Hardinge Lath.
The reason is to allow stretch, a amount equal to the AL head expansion.
When this is NOT done, the head gasket is "squished" each time the engine goes from cold to hot.
That term is called Extruded, when the gasket becomes thinner after use.
The good report from "pooter" states the China/OEM fasteners have the same strength.
This is why GM designed their engine, some good engineering my guess,
to use a head bolt that matched the AL head expansion.
Did I do better this time ?
Lance
I figured you knew what the torque sequence was so I was even more confused as to why you asked about it.
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 24,241
Likes: 89
From: Turnin' Wrenches Infractions: 005
Hi reda4, thanks for your kind words.
NOW, my "tech" for the torquing method is as yours/GM with a LAST STEP #4 added.
That step is to "re-torque" the FIRST TWO center studs (1&2 middle) to 75+, just breaking sheer.
I find these two center studs at a lower value when this is done every time and know they should be brought back to 75.
AGAIN I AGREE "China studs are NOT the toughest", a good thing in this case.
ARP sells "undercut" studs for Race Engines, none listed for common LS application.
I have fit ARP studs but ONLY after I undercut these items using my Hardinge Lath.
The reason is to allow stretch, a amount equal to the AL head expansion.
When this is NOT done, the head gasket is "squished" each time the engine goes from cold to hot.
That term is called Extruded, when the gasket becomes thinner after use.
The good report from "pooter" states the China/OEM fasteners have the same strength.
This is why GM designed their engine, some good engineering my guess,
to use a head bolt that matched the AL head expansion.
Did I do better this time ?
Lance
NOW, my "tech" for the torquing method is as yours/GM with a LAST STEP #4 added.
That step is to "re-torque" the FIRST TWO center studs (1&2 middle) to 75+, just breaking sheer.
I find these two center studs at a lower value when this is done every time and know they should be brought back to 75.
AGAIN I AGREE "China studs are NOT the toughest", a good thing in this case.
ARP sells "undercut" studs for Race Engines, none listed for common LS application.
I have fit ARP studs but ONLY after I undercut these items using my Hardinge Lath.
The reason is to allow stretch, a amount equal to the AL head expansion.
When this is NOT done, the head gasket is "squished" each time the engine goes from cold to hot.
That term is called Extruded, when the gasket becomes thinner after use.
The good report from "pooter" states the China/OEM fasteners have the same strength.
This is why GM designed their engine, some good engineering my guess,
to use a head bolt that matched the AL head expansion.
Did I do better this time ?
Lance
Thats interesting and had never considered that. I did notice, when recently using the new GM LS9 head gaskets (7 layer) on two separate engines that you can really feel them compressing. So much so that during the final torque round I was sure I had a stud giving way and about to snap. It had me very nervous the first time. All was well and it sealed fine though. Crazy stuff for sure.
TECH Resident
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 926
Likes: 18
From: Central Texas
I've just always repeated the last part of the torque sequence on non torque to angle. For example I go back and start at the first bolt at the last recommended torque value and got through the sequence again. I also notice sometimes the inners go a little further. All the torque to angle stuff I do is stock motor stuff so it tends to act right just following the manufacturer's spec/making one pass at em.
Stud Torque Method Hi cooks, "OMG' YOU are SO correct, if I stated this "tech", I would have been PUT "high" on a FLAG POLE ! (hung)
John Drake "taught" ME this METHOD !
OUR "stance" is to TEACH, I thank YOU.
Lance
John Drake "taught" ME this METHOD !
OUR "stance" is to TEACH, I thank YOU.
Lance
After I torque the ARP studs, I put a old trouble light in the valley between the heads and cover the engine for 24 hours, then re-torque the heads. You will be surprised how much movement you get after this one small heat cycle. Many years ago we used to run the engine up to operating temp(breaking in the cam) and then re-torque the heads as SOP....
LOL Lance you wouldn't be hung. We just get confused by what you mean sometimes.
Keeping it simple, the OP asked: "Head bolts or studs".
Unless you're making more than 20% over stock power, stock torque to yield are fine. They are one time use only.
Next better, ARP bolts. Follow their instructions for installation and torquing.
Next better, the best and pretty much required for high HP builds, ARP studs. Again, follow their instructions for installation and torquing.
When using bolts of any brand, getting the in-block head bolt holes clean and dry is A MUST in aluminum blocks. Failure to do so and you may crack the block. Not a bad idea to clean & dry iron block holes also.
Head and main bolts are mission critical fasteners. Import bolts often have questionable quality control. Stay away from them.
Unless you're making more than 20% over stock power, stock torque to yield are fine. They are one time use only.
Next better, ARP bolts. Follow their instructions for installation and torquing.
Next better, the best and pretty much required for high HP builds, ARP studs. Again, follow their instructions for installation and torquing.
When using bolts of any brand, getting the in-block head bolt holes clean and dry is A MUST in aluminum blocks. Failure to do so and you may crack the block. Not a bad idea to clean & dry iron block holes also.
Head and main bolts are mission critical fasteners. Import bolts often have questionable quality control. Stay away from them.
It's always confusing stuff followed by a sales solicitation.