Patron

Fact: if I went to one of many engine builders(who I deal with time to time) with this IDEA..... this is what I'd be told go Somewhere else and have it built and let me know how it works out.

00pooterSS

iTrader: (40)

Even pulses.

How will you make the pulses even with varying output from the cylinders? Will you tune each intake runner, cam lobe etc to make all cylinders burn and output equally?

Are there engines that run all cylinders simultaneously that have varying output per cylinder? If so enlighten me, because if there are I need to eat my words.


But to answer you, I actually have no "tech" to prove it, just theory. And theory doesn't always work. So if you have something I can read that describes how it could work, i'm all ears man.

Marc 85Z28

iTrader: (8)

Lots of rebuilders do stupid **** like this too. From SBC and SBF experience I've seen mismatched cylinder heads and random cylinder bores up to 0.060" larger than others in the same block. While they all ran well and smoothly they were low output carbureted turds.

Can you do it? Sure. But why? If you already knew it was a good idea you wouldn't be here asking questions.

00pooterSS

iTrader: (40)

I could see it performing "good enough" (good enough to get down the road but in reality a **** motor) on a low compression carb turd like you're talking about with some cylinder variation, but with about .345 (if I did the math right) variation in cylinder size on 4 cylinders, I can't see it, especially a late model higher compression engine that will be more sensitive to it.

pantera_efi

iTrader: (1)

Hi 00, yes I have done this in the past :
Toyota 3TRG, a four cylinder, for Chet, owner of Dukes Aerospace.
I sleeved two cylinders #1 & #4 to reduce the displacement.
The Twin Plug Head used my Ignition with the 60-2 (GM58x) for the Crankshaft Position Reference.
The first race was at the Orange Show Stadium, the MTEG race with Butch Arciero as the driver. (Circa 1982)
We won AND LAPPED the field.
Les Unger (president of TMS) was there as friend of Lloyd, Chets Father, with their agreement to start TRD, thus the birth of TRD that evening.

Knowing the compression pressure (C/R) is made equal for all cylinders is important.
Knowing the BMEP is also equal will help, it is just at different RPM's. (4.125" = 225 & 3.90" = 226)

The "WHY" question = customers orders.

Lance

00pooterSS

iTrader: (40)

I gotcha. So basically you are making larger cylinders output pulses equal to smaller cylinders it sounds like. In that scenario I can see it work, but why do it?

G Atsma

That's when YOU, the auto tech professional, tell the customer he's barking up the wrong tree trying to do something VERY impractical. You tell him to open the wallet(which he would have to do anyway with this wacky idea...) and buy a new or good "previously owned" block. The customer is NOT always right!

pantera_efi

iTrader: (1)

Hi 00, your "why" is for the 40 HP increase.

Lance

Marc 85Z28

iTrader: (8)

We've told you already, multiple times. But it sounds like you've already made up your mind before even posting.

Really? If a customer "ordered" you to jump off of a cliff, would you create a new thread to ask advice, ignore the advice, and jump anyway?

Patron

I texted my buddy Kerry @ Proline and Chris @ SAM didn't want to text everyone I mess with with this.

First question was who's gonna build it and ..... I can't post the rest.
Buy another block and build it right Lance. He's wasting MONEY trying to fix something that could be done Correctly. If he doesn't like that Idea send him here we can change his Mind. And Show him how Foolish he is yet a Racer. Lance your tripping. I've got one question how much does your ECU and the parts you'd sell him cost? Then for the sleeves? and install? Answer this? Block cost is under 1k. Or used for around $200 to $500. Now lets do SIMPLE common Sense Math.

Please respond with Cost for the products you'd sell him and sleeves add in initialization of the sleeves VS going to find another block or resleeve the Entire block....TSP has them for $2k or Steve @ RED. I'll get to the bottom line of BS. Add in different head gaskets sizes, heads need milling to match compression...etc.

Patron

Guy's let's keep it simple, with cost of Building it Lance way and doing it correctly. This will tell it all. I'm waiting for a quote to build this wop sided engine.

00pooterSS

iTrader: (40)

This has to be the most futile attempt i've ever heard of. And all the expense and headache for a measly 40 hp??

And like patron said, this is to save money yet all the supporting equipment and modifications to make it work will likely raise the price 10x over just replacing the block.

Some people like to do weird **** for the sake of being weird. At that point in my opinion at that point it's just stupid. Some good ideas and inventions have come from it, I don't see this being one of those.

G Atsma

I don't see it saving much, if any, money, as blocks are easy enough to get at decent prices, even the more specialized ones. Lance is a pretty sharp guy, so I wonder if he wants to do it as an experiment. He IS used to doing weird stuff in all he has done. Probably wants to see how smooth he can get it if all is done "right". If the customer is paying.......

Che70velle

iTrader: (6)

Patron, as I posted earlier in this thread, my concerns to make bank 1 flow EQUAL to bank 2, will be expensive. I feel that more money will be spent in the time required to r&d this, than the purchasing of parts.
We are aware that pipe sizing used while flowing heads greatly changes flow numbers and characteristics. There will be much more flow requirements from the bank with larger cylinders, both into the cylinders AND out of them. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a camshaft made (which Lance is capable of with the correct data), that will require a different intake AND exhaust duration for cylinders 1,3,5,7...and different lift requirements as well. Maybe even two different sized headers? It’s possible, as mentioned earlier concerning NHRA Prostock engines use technology like this, with different bore sizes in the engine, as well as multi-lift/duration camshaft...but those engines cost upwards of $100k. I had a machinist from Warren Johnson’s camp help install my pinned main caps on my 434”, which is 40 minutes from me, so I know secrets about those power plants...
With r&d taken into consideration, and the amount of time required to assemble data to build this correctly, it’s going to be a VERY expensive science project.
Never mind that compression balancing an engine correctly takes 40 hours on average, this engine will not be cost effective. Fun, yes, but going down the wrong path if the consumer is looking to save a nickel...
All of this is just my opinion of course.

Patron

Got WJ on speed dial too.

Patron

I heard a good joke from a friend and engine builder today: It went along the lines of, you know how NHRA has tech inspectors.. I'm like yea. He goes on to say those are some of the LAZIEST people known in the galaxy(his word now). I'm thinking why would he say this? So he says you know how they have to inspect the engine after the race compression test,pull the heads,etc.....
He goes on to say that, do you think they do all that's needed. I'm thinking yea they should. But was told those sorry,lazy,Sons of B's only pull the left side head and we had a good laugh. Thought about this build. Who would have known. LOL!


But Lance Some time ago you gave me a report on how much my combo would make with the other top end I have, I lost it and can't Find it and want to show it to my builder and have it for myself. I know you can get within 5% if everything's known. It's a simple 408

Bore x stroke of : 4.030 x 4.00
Heads are a one off Ls7's with a welded exhaust valve for a smaller one.

2.200 Titanium stock LS7 intake
1.550 Ferrea 24° exhaust No pipe used.
Flowed on 4.060 bore 28” TP
CCFM
Lift No. 1 No. 2
-------- ------- -------
0.2000 111.2 165.2
0.3000 167.2 238.7
0.4000 191.3 300.6
0.5000 213.8 336.2
0.6000 219.9 360.1
0.7000 222.8 379.7
0.8000 225.0 370.0
Milled to 61 cc's for 12.8 to 13.0 compression ratio. Lets low ball it 12.8

Cam specs are:
277/292 @.050"
.448"/.436" Lobe Lift
.785"/.763" Net Valve Lift (after Lash)
115 LSA

CID 4500 intake:Near equal length runners that are 4.0" CSA at plenum end of runner area at the plenum opening.
4500 Accufab throttle body which flows 2128 cfm
1 7/8” stepped to 2” ceramic coated long tube 3 inch 28 inch long collector.
GZ vacuum pump

I also seen where you are the maker of the Ford 302c heads or Cleveland heads. I have to ask how hard would it be to stuff that port and layout into a Ls7 head? Just something I had to ask.

Thanks ahead of time Lance!!!!!!
From: Andre or Aka Paco.

pantera_efi

iTrader: (1)

Hi Paco, you have a good kind mind.

Your report is 875@9000 HP with 589@6500 Torque (115 C/L)
Your report of 870@8000HP with 602@6500 Torque (108 C/L)

There is no specification about the EX pipe length, this makes a MAJOR difference with your large camshaft ?

Piston Speed is HIGH at 9000 RPM, I would keep it under 5K ft.

Yes, I would like to make a Weslake LS-7 head.

Lance

Patron

Thanks again Lance!!!!! I'll get with Mike(and show him this) and see if he can get it to around 8000 to 8200 peak. Couldn't measure the header pipe length, there up at the shop still in the box new. Shops closed and tried calling Headerman closed also. I've got too much stuff in my garage as is. Somebody here is still mad she can't pull her car in next to my Ford Explorer.

I'll not lose this copy of your report.