LS1 Timing Chain Options
03-15-2018, 07:23 AM
#21
Lots of discussion on chains and timing chain dampeners. Equally, if not more, important will be the harmonic damper (Pulley). The LS motors have high RPM harmonics that will wreak havoc with the timing chain so the harmonic damper for this type of application is key. You should check some of the posts by Kurt Urban on this subject. I would go with an ATI and speak with them about the application as they can alter the damping material in the hub to fit your requirements. If not an ATI, use the stock GM harmonic damper.
03-15-2018, 09:50 AM
#22
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Iwis Timing Chain Hi Pat, I would go to the iWiS web site, there is much information to be learned.
So I ask to ALL : Measure your link thickness and report ?
I Agree, the better chains ARE "seamless" as is the one I sell.
Sure, BUY from Avon gear, they are a great company.
As for the tech from "vette" I completely agree. (I always fit ATI with KEYED position)
The use of a 24ex Crankshaft Decode Wheel AND the ability of High Lobe Lift camshafts is common with LS users. (crank/cam twist increased)
The 58x Crankshaft Decode Wheel is MUCH Smoother reducing crankshaft twist, 2006+ GM OEM.
Yes again, I agree that one reason GM CHANGED the FIRING ORDER for the LS engine was to reduce crankshaft FLEX/Twist.
Then the problem caused by common LS engine balance shops who balance at "0".
My typical balance is 1% to 2% OVER based on RPM Mode.
My Air Boat/Marine customers are the ones that put the MOST Stress on a Timing Set.
Lance
So I ask to ALL : Measure your link thickness and report ?
I Agree, the better chains ARE "seamless" as is the one I sell.
Sure, BUY from Avon gear, they are a great company.
As for the tech from "vette" I completely agree. (I always fit ATI with KEYED position)
The use of a 24ex Crankshaft Decode Wheel AND the ability of High Lobe Lift camshafts is common with LS users. (crank/cam twist increased)
The 58x Crankshaft Decode Wheel is MUCH Smoother reducing crankshaft twist, 2006+ GM OEM.
Yes again, I agree that one reason GM CHANGED the FIRING ORDER for the LS engine was to reduce crankshaft FLEX/Twist.
Then the problem caused by common LS engine balance shops who balance at "0".
My typical balance is 1% to 2% OVER based on RPM Mode.
My Air Boat/Marine customers are the ones that put the MOST Stress on a Timing Set.
Lance
03-15-2018, 01:07 PM
#23
Lots of discussion on chains and timing chain dampeners. Equally, if not more, important will be the harmonic damper (Pulley). The LS motors have high RPM harmonics that will wreak havoc with the timing chain so the harmonic damper for this type of application is key. You should check some of the posts by Kurt Urban on this subject. I would go with an ATI and speak with them about the application as they can alter the damping material in the hub to fit your requirements. If not an ATI, use the stock GM harmonic damper.
03-15-2018, 04:17 PM
#24
Lots of discussion on chains and timing chain dampeners. Equally, if not more, important will be the harmonic damper (Pulley). The LS motors have high RPM harmonics that will wreak havoc with the timing chain so the harmonic damper for this type of application is key. You should check some of the posts by Kurt Urban on this subject. I would go with an ATI and speak with them about the application as they can alter the damping material in the hub to fit your requirements. If not an ATI, use the stock GM harmonic damper.
03-19-2018, 12:09 PM
#26
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I once had one of those and did not end up using it. The provided chain looked feeble, was not any beefier than stock. It honestly felt shittier than the stock chain I took off. Many people run that kit but just my .02 on it.
Nothing, it’s just that the GM LS1/LS6 dampener has long been discontinued and if you can find one you’re looking at over $100. Easier, cleaner and cheaper to just use the direct fit RDE piece than it is for the alternative which is use the TFS conversion piece with an LS2 dampener.
Nothing, it’s just that the GM LS1/LS6 dampener has long been discontinued and if you can find one you’re looking at over $100. Easier, cleaner and cheaper to just use the direct fit RDE piece than it is for the alternative which is use the TFS conversion piece with an LS2 dampener.
Installed the RDE piece this past weekend. Piece is solid but had me worried on a couple things....
1. Installed it...bolted right up. Came with everything. But, is the chain suppose to rest on the right side of it? It's somewhat rests on the right side of the damper. Don't know if thats a normal thing or not but was worried if it would cause issues at high RPM's.....who knows, maybe I'm being paranoid.
2. Once installed and all that. I moved onto the oil pump. I picked up a Melling 10295 oil pump. I went to torque it down and the oil pump is resting on the right bolt of the damper... There is no gap or anything between the two. I went to pull the oil pump off just to verify that the damper was fully tight and I noticed on the pump it had a scratch engraved from the bolt on the damper. I don't care about the scratch obviously, but I'm worried if that is normal for it to be resting upon that somewhat....?
I installed RDE damper from what I saw on some google searches and around here on the forum. I put blue loctite on the two bolts for the damper and then torqued each to 18 ft/lbs.
I'm assuming this may be normal but it did have me skeptical. When I tighten the oil pump it seated totally fine against the block, but it definitely was being pushed against that bolt a little bit. Oil pump torqued down fine though and looks sealed though.
03-19-2018, 12:39 PM
#27
Hi Wolf, thanks for the question.
I supply my timing chain with pin oiling holes for $58.00.
When this was designed I wanted to make a product, an improved product, better than the iWiS chain so I added stronger (thicker) links AND improved chain lubrication.
I often fit the L-92 Timing Chain Guide, a requirement for VVT cam alignment needed by the ECM for correct cam timing calibration.
THIS style of dampening STOPS chain "whip".
I ALWAYS modify the dampener for improved strength.
Lance
I supply my timing chain with pin oiling holes for $58.00.
When this was designed I wanted to make a product, an improved product, better than the iWiS chain so I added stronger (thicker) links AND improved chain lubrication.
I often fit the L-92 Timing Chain Guide, a requirement for VVT cam alignment needed by the ECM for correct cam timing calibration.
THIS style of dampening STOPS chain "whip".
I ALWAYS modify the dampener for improved strength.
Lance
03-19-2018, 01:35 PM
#28
Looks to me like the stock damper is slightly asymmetrical, with the bolts shifted a bit toward the driver's side of the block, and the holes in the damper offset accordingly. The RDE piece however is symmetrical; it'll hold the damper slightly toward the DS as a result. Wouldn't be by much; about .050" (1.25mm).
See the drawing in this post. https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...n-dampner.html Compare what the stock damper looks like, to the RDE. They're just not quite the same.
See the drawing in this post. https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...n-dampner.html Compare what the stock damper looks like, to the RDE. They're just not quite the same.
03-20-2018, 08:48 AM
#30
Looks to me like the stock damper is slightly asymmetrical, with the bolts shifted a bit toward the driver's side of the block, and the holes in the damper offset accordingly. The RDE piece however is symmetrical; it'll hold the damper slightly toward the DS as a result. Wouldn't be by much; about .050" (1.25mm).
See the drawing in this post. https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...n-dampner.html Compare what the stock damper looks like, to the RDE. They're just not quite the same.
See the drawing in this post. https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...n-dampner.html Compare what the stock damper looks like, to the RDE. They're just not quite the same.
03-20-2018, 09:21 AM
#31
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Avon Timing Set Hi OMC, thanks for your interest.
The Timing Set cost is $158.00 with a chain only cost of $58.00. (OEM Sprockets = OK)
This is a special price for LS-1 Tech members.
Lance
The Timing Set cost is $158.00 with a chain only cost of $58.00. (OEM Sprockets = OK)
This is a special price for LS-1 Tech members.
Lance
03-21-2018, 12:17 PM
#32
Is there a criteria for determining when a stock chain is "too stretched". Everyone seems to be hung up on replacing their chains with a better stronger one whether it is needed or not. When is loose too loose?
03-21-2018, 01:58 PM
#33
TECH Senior Member
Since a new chain is loose cold, BUT tightens when the engine is warmed up, if it's loose warmed up, THEN it might be too loose.
03-21-2018, 04:22 PM
#34
Installed the RDE piece this past weekend. Piece is solid but had me worried on a couple things....
1. Installed it...bolted right up. Came with everything. But, is the chain suppose to rest on the right side of it? It's somewhat rests on the right side of the damper. Don't know if thats a normal thing or not but was worried if it would cause issues at high RPM's.....who knows, maybe I'm being paranoid.
2. Once installed and all that. I moved onto the oil pump. I picked up a Melling 10295 oil pump. I went to torque it down and the oil pump is resting on the right bolt of the damper... There is no gap or anything between the two. I went to pull the oil pump off just to verify that the damper was fully tight and I noticed on the pump it had a scratch engraved from the bolt on the damper. I don't care about the scratch obviously, but I'm worried if that is normal for it to be resting upon that somewhat....?
I installed RDE damper from what I saw on some google searches and around here on the forum. I put blue loctite on the two bolts for the damper and then torqued each to 18 ft/lbs.
I'm assuming this may be normal but it did have me skeptical. When I tighten the oil pump it seated totally fine against the block, but it definitely was being pushed against that bolt a little bit. Oil pump torqued down fine though and looks sealed though.
1. Installed it...bolted right up. Came with everything. But, is the chain suppose to rest on the right side of it? It's somewhat rests on the right side of the damper. Don't know if thats a normal thing or not but was worried if it would cause issues at high RPM's.....who knows, maybe I'm being paranoid.
2. Once installed and all that. I moved onto the oil pump. I picked up a Melling 10295 oil pump. I went to torque it down and the oil pump is resting on the right bolt of the damper... There is no gap or anything between the two. I went to pull the oil pump off just to verify that the damper was fully tight and I noticed on the pump it had a scratch engraved from the bolt on the damper. I don't care about the scratch obviously, but I'm worried if that is normal for it to be resting upon that somewhat....?
I installed RDE damper from what I saw on some google searches and around here on the forum. I put blue loctite on the two bolts for the damper and then torqued each to 18 ft/lbs.
I'm assuming this may be normal but it did have me skeptical. When I tighten the oil pump it seated totally fine against the block, but it definitely was being pushed against that bolt a little bit. Oil pump torqued down fine though and looks sealed though.
My stock oil pump is damn close but does not touch like your aftermarket one does. If both pieces are fully torqued down and seated correctly (pump properly shimmed) I don’t see that being an issue personally. If it bothers you, could shave a tad of material off the pump or the bolt where they touch.
Last edited by StealthFormula; 03-21-2018 at 04:34 PM.
03-22-2018, 09:34 AM
#36
03-22-2018, 11:04 AM
#37
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AL Crankcase/Steel Crankcase Hi All, a good question by 47.
Example : a 12" Steel Rod AND a 12" Aluminum Rod.
Measure length at room temperature then record that value
Measure length at engine running temperature BY placing the above items in a pot of Boiling Water then record that value.
Take that value with a 2X increase to get the timing set length change in slack.
THUS the chain does NOT get shorter, the crankcase expands.
Lance
Example : a 12" Steel Rod AND a 12" Aluminum Rod.
Measure length at room temperature then record that value
Measure length at engine running temperature BY placing the above items in a pot of Boiling Water then record that value.
Take that value with a 2X increase to get the timing set length change in slack.
THUS the chain does NOT get shorter, the crankcase expands.
Lance
03-22-2018, 12:02 PM
#38
I understand thermal expansion properties of steel and aluminum but...........
I might believe a wee bit of change in an aluminum block, but I have a hard time to believe a cast iron block would change enough to even measure, never mind change the slack in a timing chain.
I might believe a wee bit of change in an aluminum block, but I have a hard time to believe a cast iron block would change enough to even measure, never mind change the slack in a timing chain.
03-22-2018, 06:29 PM
#39
The problem with temperature change isn't "change" itself; it's that different materials change DIFFERENTLY.
Cast iron and steel change about the same (not exactly, but moderately close); aluminum on the other hand, changes quite a bit more. An aluminum block should expand around .007 - .008" more than a steel chain over a normal engine temp range.
Solid cam people know this from how to adjust valves: aluminum heads require very different cold vs hot settings than iron heads.
Cast iron and steel change about the same (not exactly, but moderately close); aluminum on the other hand, changes quite a bit more. An aluminum block should expand around .007 - .008" more than a steel chain over a normal engine temp range.
Solid cam people know this from how to adjust valves: aluminum heads require very different cold vs hot settings than iron heads.
03-23-2018, 09:30 AM
#40
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LSX Timing Set + Avon Gear Hi 47, I agree with your statement "iron vs aluminum".
I have done a few LSX crankcase engine assemblies finding a more normal timing chain "slack" with my Avon Gear Timing Set.
I have done NO LS OEM Iron Block engine assemblies, is THIS (iron crankcase tech) your reference ?
The LS-1 IS an AL Crankcase
Lance
I have done a few LSX crankcase engine assemblies finding a more normal timing chain "slack" with my Avon Gear Timing Set.
I have done NO LS OEM Iron Block engine assemblies, is THIS (iron crankcase tech) your reference ?
The LS-1 IS an AL Crankcase
Lance