Paraquat

Hi everyone.
I recently joined, I'm relatively new to the LS community. I have some questions about parts for my build. It's not that I haven't done my research, but my problem is that I think I've done TOO much research and now my head is full of all the woes that other builders have experienced.
I have rebuilt engines before but they have been the AMC 4.0, a handful of Mitsubishi 4G63T, and one Chevy 4.3 for my S10. This will be my first LS variant.

I am building not for power, but rather for longevity.

I had a 2001 5.3 I was going to swap into my truck but then a LQ4 popped up for 400 dollars. It had sat outside for almost a year but I felt 400 was a good price for a long block.

I'd really like to list my intentions and reasons why, and if someone could tell me where I'm wrong or should improve I'd really appreciate it. I know people here have built these engines to death and the more experienced builders might know something I don't.

The swap:
This is a custom truck swap. I am putting a 1986 Chevrolet C20 cab and bed onto a 2006 frame. For all purposes from this point forward assume I am building a 2006 Silverado 2500 HD, mated to a NV4500 from a Silverado 2500 HD, and a NP 261 transfer case

What I want:
Pump gas
Daily driveability.
Streetability.
16/21 city/highway fuel economy (it might seem like a stretch but the NV4500 is a 5 speed overdrive manual transmission)
Longevity of the engine
350-400 hp
Keep it NA
I want to put a motorcycle in the back and not have any issues towing a vehicle on a trailer for 8-10 hours at a time
At worst I'd want to pull a stump
At best I'd put some blankets in the back and drive it to the local drive in

Rods:
So now I have this LQ4 block. I really want to run the LQ9 pistons. I love the idea of 9.6:1 compression and if I have to change pistons anyway, then why not? I know I need LQ9 rods. I found them on eBay, reconditioned, checked for the straightness and touch honed on the .943 small end, for $130.
In my readings I've discovered the LQ9 rods are almost 40 grams per rod heavier, which will necessitate a rebalancing. I'm okay with this because I'm also changing the flywheel and clutch. I've also read that these rods are good for ~700 hp. I plan on about half of that, so I should be golden.
However my readings have also lead me to believe that the rods bolts are the weak link. I am okay with building in some extra insurance and buying ARP rods bolts. This puts me around 250 for rods before factoring in the cost of dynamic balancing.
But those are used components when SCAT I beam rods, which come with ARPs, are in the $350 neighborhood. I'm okay with an extra ~$100 dollars into insurance IF my build requires it. This is one of the places where my lack of experience with the LS haunt me. I like the idea of a rod with a more close static balance.
The SCAT I beam rods are a .927 diameter wrist pin. Eagles are on the high side of the price I want to pay. Why can't I find a cheap free float rod?

Pistons:
I found a stock GM, cast, hypereutectic pistons for 300 but I don't care for my bores. There isn't much cross hatch left. It isn't chewed up, and the ridge is fine, but there are a lot of horizontal lines in the cylinders. I'd rather punch it out to be safe.
I found the EngineTech brand for 300 with rings and circlips for the wrist pins. There benefit there is I can get .020, .030, or even .040 oversized. I don't think I need a forged piston to net 1 hp per CID.

Bearings:
I'm a fan of ACL bearings. I used a ton of them on my Mitsu engines.
I've also had good luck with Clevite's.
I don't know how people feel about them in LS engines though.

Heads:
I will be running 317 heads. I will be cutting them .020-.030.
I will be gasket matching the intake and exhaust. I won't be aggressively porting them, and I've read enough to only gasket match the top of the D shape of the exhaust and not touch the hump. I have a syringe and lexan covers for CC'ing but I won't be flow testing them. I don't plan on removing enough material to warrant setting them up on a flow bench.
I was originally concerned about compression but I visited some 2500 forums and the owners there say the manual recommends 91 octane minimum because of the higher compression of the LQ9. One of my constraints is still to be able to run pump gas. I saw another post where someone did the math of .006-.007" ~= 1 cc , and then said the LQ9 pistons with a cut 317 head put them around 10.5:1. I think that's a great place for a naturally aspirated motor to be, and that's where I'd like to head.

Head gasket:
I don't think I need a MLS gasket for keeping it NA but this is another one of the areas where I'd rather ask the opinion of someone who has been there and done that.

Head bolts:
I'm looking at Chinese ARP knock offs. I don't care for torque to yield. I don't want to run any forced induction so I'm pretty sure I won't be lifting the head.

Valve train:
While on the topic of EngineTech, I found EngineTech stainless valves for about 100 each side. I like the idea of a stainless valve for absorbing heat.
Manley's are about 150 a side which isn't unreasonable but this is another area where I'm not sure if I can skate by on EngineTech OEM equivs or if it's worth investing a little extra in a name brand like Ferrea or Manley.
The benefit of the EngineTechs are that I can order them slightly oversized. They offer a 2.020 up to 2.080 for the intake.

I want to replace the valve guides with bronze. It's only about 100 bucks and two of them on one head are chewed.

I have read a lot of posts about people running the LS3 lifter trays but I don't know what the advantage is. I don't think it's something I need.

Springs:
I am considering the PAC 1218's

Lifters? I haven't even started reading about lifters.

Pushrods? I've seen a lot of talk about hardened .080 wall pushrods. I haven't read into pushrods yet though.

Cam:
I figured I'd worry about a cam when I got out of this wishy washy planning phase and actually nailed down some more specifics.

Oil pump:
I like Melling. I put the Melling high volume in my Jeep because it isn't really tached out a lot. I figured I'd need more oil in the lower RPM band than upper and it's been great so far.
I read that Melling has a high volume and a high pressure. I would elect for a high volume again because I don't plan on taching out this truck either.

Intake manifold:
I will be running a stock cathedral port intake manifold.

Throttlebody:
I have 3 throttlebodies. One is a fly by wire and useless to me. One is bigger than the other, but they are both 3 bolt throttlebodies. I forget the exact sizes at the time I'm posting this.

Exhaust:
Probably ebay stainless 1.750 headers. I did catch the sticky about ebay headers being 1.625. I know to be cautious of that. I'll probably get a generic stainless x pipe kit and source a muffler somewhere else.

That's about as far as I got so far. If you read all my ramblings, I thank you. If you have anything to add or point out anywhere I went wrong I'd greatly appreciate it.

Ls7colorado

iTrader: (3)

way over the top... keep it simple unless your budget is unlimited....
Does the Lq4 even need rebuilding? Do you know anything about it?
For your HP goal and wanting to keep it reliable a COMPLETELY stock lq4 bottom end with 243 heads (if you want to bump the compression up a little) and a good truck cam will be all you need

If it really needs rebuilding you can just order a kit from tech@WS6store
www.ws6store.com

RB04Av

I'd suggest at this point, leave the LQ4 short block alone. Put later LM7 heads on it instead of the 317s. (243 casting... common as dirt in the buzzard nests, stock on 08-up trucks or some such) Leave as much stuff ALONE as you possibly can. No point in messing with stuff that there's nothing wrong with. If you have no evidence that the LQ4 is messed up, it probably isn't. Those things are pretty stout unless they've been SERIOUSLY abused, like never changing the oil or long-term overheating or VERY high mileage. Most likely, if it LOOKS good, it IS good. Leave it alone if at all possible.

Leave the rods, rod bolts, pistons, rings, etc. etc. etc. ALONE unless you find something seriously messed up when you pull the heads.

Take off the oil pan, change the oil pump O-ring, MAKE SURE you use the right one and don't ding it somehow during installation. Melling pumps are fine. Alternatively you could get one of the ported LS6 pumps from ws6store. NOT a high volume: that's only beneficial if there's somewhere for the extra volume to GO to. (loose bearing clearances) Totally worthless in a stock bottom end unless it's already trashed, in which case it makes more sense to just go get a less trashed core, than to "fix" or "rebuild" a trashed one. Seriously. Don't re-invent the wheel.

Stock head gaskets are MLS, as well as most of the aftermarket ones. Don't re-invent the wheel. Stick with stock style.

"Don't like" TTY bolts is pretty lame. That's what the motor was designed for. They work fine. Use em. New ones of course. Again, don't re-invent the wheel.

You don't need oversized valves for what you say you want. Stock size is fine. I've never used Enginetech for these motors so I can't say much about em one way or the other. Iv'e used no telling how many sets of Manley in all sorts of motors and wouldn't hesitate to use another set. You might also want to look at ws6store's house brand; again, I've never used em myself, but they're basically $100 a side. Worth a look at least.

For a cam, don't outsmart yourself. Don't re-invent the wheel. You're not plowing unplowed earth here, or going where no [human] has ever gone before. The same cams that work great for everybody else trying to do what you're trying to do, will work great for you. Yerbasic 212/218 .550"ish stick will do all that can be done toward the goal at hand. Texas Speed has one I think they call it the "Stage 2" truck cam; they can set you up with a package of cam, springs, and hardware. ws6store also carries TSP and might be able to include other stuff in such a package and save a few coins. Or, BTR, Vinci, CamMotion, and a handful of other vendors, offer very similar cams, which I would expect would give very similar results. Don't try to run stock push rods; for $100 a set, they're too cheeeeeep not to upgrade. You don't need anything radical or state-of-the-art or "maxed out", but you DO want something better than stock. Wait until you have the motor assembled, use an adjustable push rod to find the optimum, select push rods accordingly. (valve train is not adjustable; you set lifter preload via push rod length) Use LS7 lifters, you can get em bulk for about $100 the set. Use stock rockers except put one of the bushing trunnion kits in em, either the CHE or Straub.

Use the DBW TB setup. Ya gotta deal with wiring; ya gotta get a tune; it's stoooopid not to. Don't re-invent the wheel. It works JUST FINE. Use it.

Use the 8.2 marine injectors. They're CHEEEEEEEEEEEEEP on ebay. Any number of services can clean / rebuild / flow-match / whatever them.

The stock LQ4 manifold is just fine. There's basically nothing to be gained by messing with it, for what you're doing. Don't re-invent the wheel. Run it.

No idea about the specific headers you have in mind. About the only thing I can tell you, is that there are FEW things that will make you HATE your truck WORSE THAN crappy headers. Good quality ones are worth every penny. I'd recommend stainless, and have them coated... the stainless won't stay bright and shiny, but the coating will; and the coating will lower your underhood temps by HUNDREDS of degrees. Again, worth every penny.

2 things you didn't mention that are CRITICAL: a tune, and a torque converter. You'll need both of those. Take all your rod and piston money and use it on a GOOD converter and tune instead.

Last but not least, did I mention, don't re-invent the wheel? What you're asking for, except for the 16 mpg part in a 4WD vehicle which is … not bloody likely, is EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZY, and has been done plenty of times. It's not rocket surgery. Especially if you LEAVE STUFF ALONE that is fine as-is.

Paraquat

Thank you both for the speedy replies.

When I went to pick up the block it did not have rags in the exhaust ports and had fresh looking rags in the intake. They did not look like rags that were stuffed in the intake ports and left outside for a year, which makes me skeptical. The oil fill tube was absent and when I pulled the valve cover I found pieces of speedy dry as well as a few acorns present.
The story goes that this engine was from the shop truck which was used for deliveries and snow plowing the lot of the shop where it lived. Actual mileage is unknown. Supposedly it was swapped out for a misfire issue that ended up being the cam angle sensor. I have no way to confirm or deny this, but the cam angle sensor is smashed to bits.

When I was 18 I drove a shop truck and I was very not kind to it, which is why the refresh is desired.

I have the engine on a stand now with both heads removed. Other than the lack of a cross hatch and some serious rust on the block it doesn't look bad. I have not removed the pan so I can't speak for the bearings. The oil I drained out was black as pitch. I doubt it saw service as frequently as it should have.

It would save a ton if I just ran the bottle hone through it, re-ring, and replace the bearings. A kit like that is only 100 bucks.

Ls7colorado

iTrader: (3)

I see your dilemma, for the cost of a "Proper rebuild" you could just pic up another lq4 or even better a Ly6

What exactly is your budget for this project?

Paraquat

It costs what it costs. It's a hobby, but I would like to actually use the truck before the end of the year. I don't say that to make it sound as if I'm cavalier about money. I know quality costs money.

I paid 650 for the 5.3, all accessories, harness, and ECU. Complete from air box to 6" past the 3 bolt flange. I already rewired the harness and flashed the ECU by the same guy who had the wiring harness write up (Another forum I am on has a rule about naming non contributing vendors which is why I'm being vague). I replaced the valley, intake gaskets, exhaust gaskets, steam port gaskets, and valve cover gaskets all before I bought the 6.0. Between both engines and all the gaskets I'm probably into this ~1500 already.

The 6.0 came with a cathedral port and a rectangular port intake manifold. I almost want to drop the 5.3 in the truck and take my time with the 6.0 but I made the move for the 6.0 thinking I could sell the 5.3 and extra manifold to recoup some losses.

Ls7colorado

iTrader: (3)

I guess its all in what you want but a stage 2 truck cam in the 5.3 would get you over 300rwhp and still manage to tow pretty good with say a 4.10 gear
Actually I would want a 4.10 or 4.56 no mater witch route you go, depending on rear tire size.

If it were me I would sell the 5.3 and 6.0 (if it actually needs to be build witch it sounds like it does) find a running 6.0 and throw a summit stage 2 truck cam, valve springs, headers, and tune.

RB04Av

If the 6.0 doesn't NEED "rebuilding", don't.

If it does need it, DON'T. It'll be FAR cheeeeper and less risky in the long run to just go the the buzzard and pick up a guaranteed good one.

Likewise, if you really want all that LQ9 stuff, the best way to get it will be to simply get … a LQ9. And, leave it alone and run it.

Don't waste money on stuff that doesn't advance your project. Rather, use the money you DON'T spend on stuff you DON'T need, to improve other aspects of it. Like a converter for example.

Don't get all hung up on the whole "I've already got this one thing" if using it isn't not the cheeeeepest straightest best route toward ending up with what you ultimately want. Think more like, I have this and I want to end up with that, what way gets me there while leaving my bank account as full as possible.

Ls7colorado

iTrader: (3)

Exactly I just toasted my lq4 and instead of rebuilding it for around$1500 I went ahead and got a nice low mile l76 (aluminum 6.0) shortblock for $1100 shipped

Paraquat

I took the pan off the 6.0 this weekend. It has the 143 casting rods, which I expected. I thought I had broken a rod journal though. I was not expecting them to look all sintered and brokeny looking but they all looked like that.

There was a lot of crunchy debris in the bottom of the pan but it wasn't bearing material glitter. The starboard bank (2,4,6,8 side) cam bearings were worn down into the copper but the port side (1,3,5,7) were fine. Not sure what that is indicative of.
I did buy this engine with the caveat it threw a cam timing code.

Rod bearings had some round scratches but the mains looked gorgeous. I used a hand held wire brush to remove scale from the block.

I had 5 friends come over and we moved the cab onto the new frame. I think I'm going to use the 5.3 to mock up the relative location and take my time with the 6.0. As tempting as a 1000 dollar junk yard motor is I saw the rebuild kits that WS6store is offering (which I had never heard of before, so thank you everyone who recommended them) for 670 dollars.
400 for my "core" plus 670 plus a few hundred in machine work for a brand new engine is worth it to me versus a junk yard engine.

I forgot to add originally that I already have a LUK brand stock clutch and flywheel. This was an OEM replacement clutch kit so I'm not sure how well it would withstand an increase in torque if I boosted this, which means keeping it NA is probably my safest bet. I do like LS7Colorado's idea of a mild cam and calling it a day especially for my low power expectations.

Thank you everyone who replied.

Ls7colorado

iTrader: (3)

Those are great kits for the money, that will also give you flat top pistons.

Paraquat

There's another rub, although I'm not sure how it affects me.
My 5.3 has a thicker crankshaft end.
My 6.0 is thinner.

I've done some quick Google searching and it turns out there is supposed to be a .400" crank spacer for the flywheel. I'm glad I caught it now before I assembled everything.

Also my NV4500 is only rated for 460 ft/lbs of torque input (as quoted by New Venture) before gears start fretting and shearing. This was a little disappointing to hear. I am just assuming 30% drive train loss that means I should hang out around the 350-380 ft/lbs of torque range which isn't much more than a factory 6.0. I am assuming this is torque off the crank as it's feeding into the transmission.

Some of the big diesel guys say they broke their input shafts around 550 hp, others say they launch at 70 psi.

Kind of wondering if I should look into a ZF S6-650.

G Atsma

I believe spacers are available so the 6.0 can be used.

SLP IROC-Z

iTrader: (14)

a stock lq9 is rated at 345hp/380tq, youre not very far off your goal and that rating is with a stock tune designed for 87 octane. Id go with a small cam and base the entire build around torque, 10.5-11.0:1 compression will help but youll need to run 93 octane. a small cam, bump in compression, headers/boltons youll easily exceed 400hp and a good boost in torque just keep the cam small. I would talk to Pat G or Cam Motion about the cam, you definitely dont need/want a 6000+rpm motor in a truck unless its a hotrod and from what i gather youre not going that route.

Paraquat

I emailed ws6 store and did not get a reply so I started to piece meal my build.

I ended up buying EngineTech flat top gen 4 pistons in 4.020 diameter.
I ended up buying Gen4 rods. I got them from an eBay vendor named A1Racing and they were in really great shape.
I ended buying the very last GM crank spacer on RockAuto for 45 bucks.
I was quoted at 650 to punch the block, hone it, kiss the deck, and balance the rotating assembly.

I gasket matched my 317 heads.

I sold my rectangular port NBSS manifold and bought a TBSS manifold. When it arrived it looked like it had been through Hell. Turns out Fed Ex repackaged it. The seller claimed he left the intake bolts in their proper locations but I received them in a baggieand it looked like the shipping label was cut off the old box and taped on a new box. Because it was presumably repackaged, one of the studs penetrated the side of the box and now the stud and escutcheon are loose. Fed Ex said their insurance would only cover 100 dollars worth. Because I am staying NA I will probably be fine but it's annoying.

I'm now looking at a Cloyes/Melling package on Summit. ~200 for the thicker LS2 timing chain and melling oil pump.

What's the deal with lifter trays? Are they all built equally?

What about lifters and rockers?

I don't know if mentioned previously but I'm keeping the stock 4 port steam port setup.

I put together a spread sheet to help me determine gasket thickness and DCR once I confirm my head CC after they are cut and planed. I caught a sticky about recycling my TTY head bolts. I will probably do that.

Still have my heart set on Manley valves.

How are they eBay 92mm throttlebodies in NA setups?

cino

iTrader: (28)

Instead of messing with Manley valves and big chamber 317 heads, I’d much rather get a set of 243/799 heads that have same ports, same valves, but smaller and more efficient combustion chambers.
Reuse stock rockers with trunion upgrade from CHE or Straub.
Use LS2 lifter trays and LS7 lifters.
Ported LS6 oil pump, LS2 chain and sprockets.
TBSS is the best choice of intake for your use, can’t speak for damage without seeing it, it would bother me too. Far from defending Fedex, just like any carrier they are very rough with boxes, but if the intake was well protected by few layers of bubble wrap, in thick cardboard box taped all over, it would probably come intact.
Stay away from no brand ebay TB. Get WARR 92mm, a quality affordable throttle body.

Paraquat

I thought about the 799s but the values I was using in the spreadsheet showed I was pushing to cusp of pump gas with my DCR. I think the thing that frightened me away was that the 799s are for a small bore and I'm concerned with material overlapping into the chamber. Am I too paranoid? Am I worrying about that more than I should?

I've never built an LS before which is why I'm asking all the rookie questions but shouldn't I consider that safety margin? With the 317s I believe it put me at 8.87 DCR.

Edit: the Warr TB looks nice. Thank you for that recommendation. I see them with and without a vent tube. I plan on keeping my MAF but all emissions will be deleted or removed. I am emissions exempt based on the year of the vehicle. Does this mean I want the one without the vent tube?

cino

iTrader: (28)

Get one with tube. It’s where you will connect crankcase ventilation/pcv.
799/243 chambers are not too small for 4inch bore.
LS2 is a 6.0 with 243 heads.