Lifter questions: Link-bar, drop in, "Slow Leak Down", Short Travel
12-30-2019, 01:32 PM
#1
Lifter questions: Link-bar, drop in, "Slow Leak Down", Short Travel Is there any benefit to link-bar lifters besides not having to use the lifter trays?
Is there any downside to using link-bar lifters?
What does "Slow Leak Down" mean?
I assume "short travel" means that the plunger does not move as far, thus the P2V clearance has to be more precise?
Is there any downside to using link-bar lifters?
What does "Slow Leak Down" mean?
I assume "short travel" means that the plunger does not move as far, thus the P2V clearance has to be more precise?
12-30-2019, 02:48 PM
#2
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Short travel means your lifter preload has to be more precise. Instead of a .170 window you have .058 to work with. No effect on PTV Clarence
12-30-2019, 04:33 PM
#4
Slow bleed down is good, it means the lifter will maintain pressure behind the plunger/plunger height better.
All of the above leads to more power since you'll get more of the cams lift translated to the valve, which is why short travels are better, and solids are best.
I started to look for a video or something that can probably explain what I'm thinking better than my way of wording it and here is one of the things I found about short travel lifters. Was originally posted by Jakefusion in another thread, and said he had found it somewhere
When properly set, you have some preload that depresses the piston in the lifter a certain amount. When you get into RPM's where the springs can no longer keep the lifter on the cam, you start getting some clearance. With this clearance, the hydralic lifter trys to take up the slack. It can only do this to the amount it was originally depressed. That's the 'pumping up'.
What happens when that happens is that now the lifter is effectively too long that when the valve should be closed, it nolonger is. It's left slightly off the seat by that slack amount times your rocker ration. Hence, power drops off as the valves don't close completely on compression and power stroke.
Better parts (lighter and better matched springs and their rates) and limited preload lifters help this problem by helping keep the contact all the time. As far as damage, the lifter would most likely lose contact as it's coming over the nose. Piston is not near that event. However, once it gets pumped up. You'll have a closer piston to valve clearance the what you measure. If you were close, you'll be that much closer. A lifter with a preload of .040" will cause the valve to stay open .040" x rocker ratio when pump-up occurs.
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12-30-2019, 06:55 PM
#7
Yes, but the short travel should have less lift deflection due to the short travel, and not as much of the cams lift being ate up by the plunger being pushed in. That is my understanding of it anyway.
Slow bleed down is good, it means the lifter will maintain pressure behind the plunger/plunger height better.
All of the above leads to more power since you'll get more of the cams lift translated to the valve, which is why short travels are better, and solids are best.
I started to look for a video or something that can probably explain what I'm thinking better than my way of wording it and here is one of the things I found about short travel lifters. Was originally posted by Jakefusion in another thread, and said he had found it somewhere
When properly set, you have some preload that depresses the piston in the lifter a certain amount. When you get into RPM's where the springs can no longer keep the lifter on the cam, you start getting some clearance. With this clearance, the hydralic lifter trys to take up the slack. It can only do this to the amount it was originally depressed. That's the 'pumping up'.
What happens when that happens is that now the lifter is effectively too long that when the valve should be closed, it nolonger is. It's left slightly off the seat by that slack amount times your rocker ration. Hence, power drops off as the valves don't close completely on compression and power stroke.
Better parts (lighter and better matched springs and their rates) and limited preload lifters help this problem by helping keep the contact all the time. As far as damage, the lifter would most likely lose contact as it's coming over the nose. Piston is not near that event. However, once it gets pumped up. You'll have a closer piston to valve clearance the what you measure. If you were close, you'll be that much closer. A lifter with a preload of .040" will cause the valve to stay open .040" x rocker ratio when pump-up occurs.
Slow bleed down is good, it means the lifter will maintain pressure behind the plunger/plunger height better.
All of the above leads to more power since you'll get more of the cams lift translated to the valve, which is why short travels are better, and solids are best.
I started to look for a video or something that can probably explain what I'm thinking better than my way of wording it and here is one of the things I found about short travel lifters. Was originally posted by Jakefusion in another thread, and said he had found it somewhere
When properly set, you have some preload that depresses the piston in the lifter a certain amount. When you get into RPM's where the springs can no longer keep the lifter on the cam, you start getting some clearance. With this clearance, the hydralic lifter trys to take up the slack. It can only do this to the amount it was originally depressed. That's the 'pumping up'.
What happens when that happens is that now the lifter is effectively too long that when the valve should be closed, it nolonger is. It's left slightly off the seat by that slack amount times your rocker ration. Hence, power drops off as the valves don't close completely on compression and power stroke.
Better parts (lighter and better matched springs and their rates) and limited preload lifters help this problem by helping keep the contact all the time. As far as damage, the lifter would most likely lose contact as it's coming over the nose. Piston is not near that event. However, once it gets pumped up. You'll have a closer piston to valve clearance the what you measure. If you were close, you'll be that much closer. A lifter with a preload of .040" will cause the valve to stay open .040" x rocker ratio when pump-up occurs.
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12-30-2019, 11:09 PM
#8
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Trying to avoid multi quote on phone, so I hope you can match the reply to the prior comment.
The easiest way to explain the advantages of short travel and solid lifters is that the valve travel path will follow the cam more perfectly. Everything, lifter er pump your and bleed down, pushrod deflection, rocker geometry. All of it affects how well the valve follows (or does not follow) the intended path as determined by cam lobe.
Short travels do not require additional maintenance, and I still maintain solids only require minimal additional maintenance. With short travel you set the lifter preload with custom length pushrods. The process to get precise measurements is more involved vs buying the company checker and counting rotations. Then if necessary you can fine-tune by using machine shims under the rocker pedestal. Once this is done, it is done. Run it and forget it. A similar process can be done with solids, but I will not clutter this thread going into it unless you want more details.
The benefit to link bars is they prevent the lifter from being able to rotate. The lifter tears do the same, but the link bar is even more secure than the trays. This is not to imply or suggest the trays are unreliable. As lift increases, base circle decreases, so the lifter extends further out of the trays as the valve closes. Link bars work regardless of lift. If your lift is at or below .650, link bars are really pretty optional. If you are insane like some of us, you want the link bars.
Hope all that helps...
The easiest way to explain the advantages of short travel and solid lifters is that the valve travel path will follow the cam more perfectly. Everything, lifter er pump your and bleed down, pushrod deflection, rocker geometry. All of it affects how well the valve follows (or does not follow) the intended path as determined by cam lobe.
Short travels do not require additional maintenance, and I still maintain solids only require minimal additional maintenance. With short travel you set the lifter preload with custom length pushrods. The process to get precise measurements is more involved vs buying the company checker and counting rotations. Then if necessary you can fine-tune by using machine shims under the rocker pedestal. Once this is done, it is done. Run it and forget it. A similar process can be done with solids, but I will not clutter this thread going into it unless you want more details.
The benefit to link bars is they prevent the lifter from being able to rotate. The lifter tears do the same, but the link bar is even more secure than the trays. This is not to imply or suggest the trays are unreliable. As lift increases, base circle decreases, so the lifter extends further out of the trays as the valve closes. Link bars work regardless of lift. If your lift is at or below .650, link bars are really pretty optional. If you are insane like some of us, you want the link bars.
Hope all that helps...
12-31-2019, 10:02 AM
#9
Ok, so from all of the comments, I think that I want Slow Leak Down and link bars, but I do not want short travel.
What about axle oiling vs non axle oiling?
I am talking about these:
Johnson 2116LSR (non axle-oiling)
Johnson 2126LSR (axle-oiling)
What about axle oiling vs non axle oiling?
I am talking about these:
Johnson 2116LSR (non axle-oiling)
Johnson 2126LSR (axle-oiling)
12-31-2019, 10:33 AM
#10
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Axle oiling directs some of the cam supply oil to the lifter roller axle. So, it receives fresh, pressurized oil. non axle oiling relies on oil splash just like stock. Most of the time, splash oiling is fine. I like the reliability of the axle oiling under high stress (rpm, spring rates, high lift, etc). One side effect is that sometimes the system oil pressure is reduced. so on a stock oil pump you may be used to seeing 38-45 psi warm oil pressure. With the axle oiling, you may see closer to 20-25. but once the engine spins past 1200, the pressure jumps back into the 40's. It scares a lot of people when they do not expect it.
12-31-2019, 11:40 AM
#11
Axle oiling directs some of the cam supply oil to the lifter roller axle. So, it receives fresh, pressurized oil. non axle oiling relies on oil splash just like stock. Most of the time, splash oiling is fine. I like the reliability of the axle oiling under high stress (rpm, spring rates, high lift, etc). One side effect is that sometimes the system oil pressure is reduced. so on a stock oil pump you may be used to seeing 38-45 psi warm oil pressure. With the axle oiling, you may see closer to 20-25. but once the engine spins past 1200, the pressure jumps back into the 40's. It scares a lot of people when they do not expect it.
I highly doubt I will ever spin the motor past 6500 RPMs. Under 5K 90% of the time.
My valve spring pressure will not get to 500 lbs (495 at most)
I doubt the cam will have over .650 lift.
12-31-2019, 11:49 AM
#12
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I would say axle oiling in your car would be a luxury item.
12-31-2019, 02:55 PM
#13
It sounds like your standard issue lifter will be fine for you.
You should stay below .620 lift unless you're gonna put some money in roller rockers, the stockers don't like over 620 lift
Link bars for you are over kill and axle oiling
The short travel is what I would want the most of all the things discussed.
The short travel are hydraulic lifters just like the stock ones, but they maintain the lift of the cam better so more of the lift of the cam lobe is properly translated to the valve. They keep the valve lash adjusted just like the stockers do, which is the benefit of having a hydraulic lifter, and the side benefit of maintaining the valve lash is reduced noise in the valve train. Both the standard lifter and short travel offer this benefit. I like solid best really, but it does involve a little more work and can be a bit tedious. Which the short travels can be a little of that on initial setup.
If you're doing a simple, regular build, the regular lifters will be great for your build. If you wan't to get everything out of it you can short travel or solids will help with that, at the cost of a little more work setting it up. With the solids you will need to go in and check valve lash once a year or so too. That's really subjective though..
You should stay below .620 lift unless you're gonna put some money in roller rockers, the stockers don't like over 620 lift
Link bars for you are over kill and axle oiling
The short travel is what I would want the most of all the things discussed.
The short travel are hydraulic lifters just like the stock ones, but they maintain the lift of the cam better so more of the lift of the cam lobe is properly translated to the valve. They keep the valve lash adjusted just like the stockers do, which is the benefit of having a hydraulic lifter, and the side benefit of maintaining the valve lash is reduced noise in the valve train. Both the standard lifter and short travel offer this benefit. I like solid best really, but it does involve a little more work and can be a bit tedious. Which the short travels can be a little of that on initial setup.
If you're doing a simple, regular build, the regular lifters will be great for your build. If you wan't to get everything out of it you can short travel or solids will help with that, at the cost of a little more work setting it up. With the solids you will need to go in and check valve lash once a year or so too. That's really subjective though..
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12-31-2019, 03:10 PM
#15
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No problem. It does catch you off guard unless you are prepared.
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12-31-2019, 03:41 PM
#16
It sounds like your standard issue lifter will be fine for you.
You should stay below .620 lift unless you're gonna put some money in roller rockers, the stockers don't like over 620 lift
Link bars for you are over kill and axle oiling
The short travel is what I would want the most of all the things discussed.
The short travel are hydraulic lifters just like the stock ones, but they maintain the lift of the cam better so more of the lift of the cam lobe is properly translated to the valve. They keep the valve lash adjusted just like the stockers do, which is the benefit of having a hydraulic lifter, and the side benefit of maintaining the valve lash is reduced noise in the valve train. Both the standard lifter and short travel offer this benefit. I like solid best really, but it does involve a little more work and can be a bit tedious. Which the short travels can be a little of that on initial setup.
If you're doing a simple, regular build, the regular lifters will be great for your build. If you wan't to get everything out of it you can short travel or solids will help with that, at the cost of a little more work setting it up. With the solids you will need to go in and check valve lash once a year or so too. That's really subjective though..
You should stay below .620 lift unless you're gonna put some money in roller rockers, the stockers don't like over 620 lift
Link bars for you are over kill and axle oiling
The short travel is what I would want the most of all the things discussed.
The short travel are hydraulic lifters just like the stock ones, but they maintain the lift of the cam better so more of the lift of the cam lobe is properly translated to the valve. They keep the valve lash adjusted just like the stockers do, which is the benefit of having a hydraulic lifter, and the side benefit of maintaining the valve lash is reduced noise in the valve train. Both the standard lifter and short travel offer this benefit. I like solid best really, but it does involve a little more work and can be a bit tedious. Which the short travels can be a little of that on initial setup.
If you're doing a simple, regular build, the regular lifters will be great for your build. If you wan't to get everything out of it you can short travel or solids will help with that, at the cost of a little more work setting it up. With the solids you will need to go in and check valve lash once a year or so too. That's really subjective though..