Enigma540

I think ideas SHOULD be challenged. By everyone. Doing so forces everyone to inspect the idea from different angles. That very principle is why none of us are bragging about our 3-curve cams. Ya know? I've found that most wadded panties come from those who have something to sell, and will fight to the death to make a sale instead of coming here (or anywhere) to learn. I'm just a truck driver.......certainly no engine builder or mechanic.......but I love this stuff. I love the math and physics that drives the innovation, the problem solving and thinking that creates positive results, and really anything car related. So I'm always learning/trying to and always will to join a good discussion that'll further my knowledge as well as others. Being a truck driver, I'm also firmly in the blue collar "dang that's expensive" crowd, as well. But as you said, it's all in good fun here (and elsewhere), and hopefully we all log out more informed than when we log in.

AwesomeAuto

One of the most true things I've seen on here.
Unfortunately the automotive world is leaning HARD towards cookie-cutter builds and cams that are stamped out and heralded by the less knowledgeable as "one size fits all".
This is the very reason I tend to stay so far away from BTR/LJMS cams (aside from the fact that if I wanted a Comp cam, I would buy it from Comp), as they've become the Go-To for all the wrong reasons.
This is the type of thing that has absolutely killed Pro-Stock and stock car racing by turning them largely into "spec" races.

People are becoming less and less eager to try something for themselves and instead gravitate towards being told how to do everything by someone else, even if its against their preference. I'm not talking about people who are asking to learn, I'm talking about people who are asking so that they don't have to.

Enigma540

"instant/guaranteed success". People have been conned into believing that exists, so they naturally want it. Sort of comes down to what kind of person one is. That may make me sound like a douchenozzle, but I'm as far from that as one can get. There's no right or wrong way, just right or wrong for the individual. I'd rather cut my own path, learn in a way that I know will educate me, and make a few mistakes and get a few scrapes and scars along the way. Others may prefer to follow the cookie recipe. Like I said earlier, I know nothing of LJMS/BTR, so I'd never say anything derogatory about them, but in studying fluid mechanics/dynamics one inevitably winds up learning about the marketing of cams, and how it's based on the blessed ignorance (meaning lack of knowledge, not "stupidity") of the average customer. No different than 30 years ago when the same Elgin sbc cam was sold as something different in each of 30 different white boxes. Personally, I prefer to stick with smaller "boutique" designer/grinders like jones or cam motion or someone like that.

Money is what's turning most higher forms of automotive sport into spec builds/races. Money steps in and starts setting legislation (Winston cup, prime example), then the small guy can no longer compete so they start regulating innovation and "thinking outside the box" (Smokeys fan driven alternator) marketing dollars come in and start demanding to be catered to.........then the whole deal is just money. That doesn't affect me, as I'm just a fun street toy kind of guy, but it does affect the industry/hobby/sport as a whole. "What wins on Sunday sells on Monday" kind of deal. I always assume that marketing/warranty is Latin for "the lies you tell people to sell your product"...........whether it's even "yours", and whether it even works or not.

cam

iTrader: (9)

Tooley is a good guy and has been helpful to me and others over the years. I havent run one of his cams but I sure would. Dont see no reason to knock the guy for putting a brand together and taking some of the guess work out of it for the less informed. Thats really what its all about, even if you try and inform people most of the time if its out of their scope they not only dont understand they think your either crazy or full of crap. You can lead a horse to water...

Tooley and the other cam sales co's offer tested proven products for mainstreet HotRods and keep it fun. Thats how i see them.

Whatttt?

Enigma540

i agree with every word of that. I'd certainly run one of his cams, and I don't know him from Adam. I look at it this way: any of us can sit around doing spline knots all day (and even the old polynomials), and even have our cam ground.......but that's barely the tip of the iceberg. Spin testing, track proving, marketing, advertising..........all of that takes time and budgets that I'll certainly never have. So, without guys like Tooley, or Jones, and all of them really.........there would be no hobby. So my hat is off to all of them. I just prefer to stay away from places with seemingly unlimited marketing budgets. Huge places. Comp for example. When they spend the money for R&D.........they have to push that product........whether it's right for you or not. I prefer people who I need, and who need me. Mom&pop service. Like Tooley. Or bullet, or one of the myriad small to medium sized companies. And even having said that, I've never once had a bad experience with comp. so I can't (and won't) knock their products, regardless of what the Internet says about them.

wannafbody

iTrader: (2)

Tooley has a good rep and has been around the block. Same goes for guys like Mamo. I just saw Mamo spec a cam that doesn't look that radically different than a BTR stage 2 or Cam Motion Titan 4. Maybe it has some whiz bang secret sauce lobes or maybe not. Pick who you deal with based on their reputation. The way things are looking, this hobby is going belly up sometime in the future.

Enigma540

i doubt there's any secret sauce there. Where guys like Tony specialize is in knowing their products VERY well and, in turn, knowing what works well with their product. Mamo is a HUGE wealth of knowledge that I've been learning from since wayyyyy back in his AFR days. Incredibly smart man. Like I've always said, once you get close to max reliable/stable velocity/acceleration.......the single biggest key is when to open and close. Tony, being extremely knowledgeable in fluid dynamics and port design, is very well versed in exactly that. As much of a clėche as it is, it's also very true that success lies in the total combination. And guys like Mamo (and Foxwell, and many others) understand that and live by it. What normally looks like secret sauce to most is actually knowledge, skill, and hard earned experience.

G Atsma

^^^^^^^^^ALL of this. The key word here is COORDINATION between intakes, cams, and heads. Mamo, Tooley, Guerra, et al, know how to make their handiwork work WITH the other parts, besides knowing how to make killer versions of the parts they make/modify. They all know an engine is a system, not just a bunch of parts.

Che70velle

iTrader: (6)

Good info her guys. I will add to the discussion here that “cookie cutter” camshafts side by side, may appear to be very equal in duration and lift, but knowing and understanding the lobe family each is ground on makes all of the “secret sauce” difference. Two cams equal in duration and lift, but ground on different lobes will act very differently in the same engine. This is where the tens of thousands of hours of spintron data and dyno cell data come into play. I don’t care a bit to give anyone my camshaft specs, but you will never get the lobe family info from me. It’s proprietary to what Tony Mamo does, and it’s his lobe design, along with Godbold. I’d call my Mamo camshaft custom, because the lobe family is unique to him. That’s where the witchcraft is derived from in today’s world of performance engines, regarding camshaft design. Again, great discussion here guys, keep it up.