84ta406

iTrader: (6)

Just curious but with such a simple, mild combo, why not use stock rockers?

G Atsma

Curious about this myself....

grinder11

iTrader: (1)

Maybe things have changed at Pro Form, but when I inquired about some LS parts a couple-three years ago, they told me they made nothing for the LS engines, just GEN1 SBC. So, I'd be 100% certain these rockers are specifically made for your application......

41ApacheWarParty

Okay first off I tried that but without the adjustable push rod length checkers in place with no head gaskets in place you can't get an accurate picture of where they will sit exactly... when I laid them in the heads with the perimeter bolt bosses they looked as though they would fit with no push rods in the engine but then got new heads.... so I had to get them machined which I did. Then you need to bolt the heads down on the block and lay out your assembly again and install the adjustable push rods and check to see if you need shims under the stands and do a full install setup... when I just laid them in the heads without pushrods they looked as though they would fit without any issues and the posts and pictures even show that. But with a rocker arm set that needs a full setup and full exact measurements you can only do that after your heads are installed because your head gasket thickness and the milling of your heads (removal of the head surface material) all come into play with how long your pushrods will need to be to make it all work properly. Every engine will be different and pushrod lengths will be different based on how much material was shaved off the head to true it up flat.... some heads might only need 10 thousandths removed some others might need 20 or more. All these things need to be assembled to get exact measurements for new pushrods and what cam you have will make a difference, what springs you have etc. to avoid coil bind, everything working together in harmony. So when I laid the arms in the heads with no pushrods they looked as though they would fit without having to clearance anything on the old heads #806 perimeter style. They dropped into the #853 heads I got from Wade just fine as well but as soon as I bolted the new heads down to the block with the Fel Pro gaskets, I could not get the rocker arm shafts to sit in the stands with no shims, single shim or dual/ 2 shims per bolt and still would not lay in the stands properly. There was a space gap and I adjusted the adjuster push rods really small and when I finally did get them as close as I could to sit In the stands with a tiny gap of around 1/32 or 1/64th of an Inch I saw them touching the wall of the head on a few of the rocker arms rear surfaces. Others were about a folded dollar bill thickness away from the head and it would have chewed into the aluminum and ground the arm and head until it had enough room to fit with heat expansion of aluminum as the engine got warmer it would have chewed up even more aluminum and spewed it all thru the engine.
when I setup my jessel valve train in my big blocks in my boat, it was very easier to do than this LS.... (I will admit the stands for the big blocks were all TIG welded together already from Herb Stotler Racing Engines to assure perfect angles and hyper accurate geometry making the measurement procedure easier to do since big block chevy geometry is uneven intake vs exhaust compared to almost all other engines and every time yoh get new heads and gaskets or machine heads and block you need to measure for new pushrods everytime you disassemble and reassemble an engine... any engine builder will tell you this) and those engines ran fine with no issues and about every 10 hours i just had to check the valve adjustments and lash. With a "short staggered engine configuration" and 2 piece valve covers it made it easy to do but this LS was not as easy as the big blocks and I am sorry when these websites say these parts fit "all LS engines" and they actually don't, how else am I supposed to select parts??? It is trial and error since it seems the terms are getting lost in translation they seem to confuse the terms small block chevy and small block LS chevy.
I hope I explained the above correctly and clearly. The pushrod measurement process is not new to me but in an LS and thisPro Comp brand of part is. I have only done minor work to LS engines last 20 or so years and 1 cam install back in 1999/2000 on my first 1998 trans am and I finished it in one very long Saturday. I installed the GMPP 110° LSA ASA Hot Cam back then since cams were just getting started and no one really made cams or only 3 or 4 were out at the time for these LS engines back then. So I did not have to swap springs with a .525 lift cam since stock springs were adequate for that amount of lift. I am from the short and tall deck big block marine world not the LS world so I'm using my knowledge and skills from huge power big block marine engines in this LS and apparently is more black and white different than I ever thought it would be. So it is a learning curve as well as having parts listed as they fit when they don't and having to wait like many of us with back ordered parts and major supply problems trying to get parts and manufacturers not able to get materials to make them to begin with. Just trying to build a fun to drive fast street car not a full blown race car. I'd put a 572 with a BDS or THE BLOWER SHOP 12-71 in my chevelle if I wanted a race car in the single digit quarter mile like the brand new 2023 COPO Camaros are getting.
does that answer your questions and clear up your confusion sir.

J

41ApacheWarParty

GRINDER,
This is how this whole mess started with the summit site saying the Pro Comp brand fit all LS engines .... so that's why I swapped to the brand Scorpion which now i am being told are back ordered until Valentine's day. So this Pro Form brand says they fit and here are the lists and years of various LS engines it shows they fit (see screen shots below of all LS engines.. years...engjne sizes etc. Of fitment info) so i am going on faith yet again that the website info is correct. All i know is i have a Gen III LS engine, not sure what year it is but i know and am positive it is a 5.3 liter from the pistons in it and it being cast iron block.
I THINK?? It is a 2006 block but not certain and ill have to ask Wade what year heads these are but they are the #853 center bolt style heads so im guessing the heads are around mid 2000s range.

Screen shots of summitracing page for these Pro Form rockers. I do feel a little more confident I won't have fitment issues with these since they seem to be an exact EXACT copy/same arms as the Harland Sharp arms. They are identical in every way including all bolts and pedestals and everything all exactly the same so it at least gives me more confidence than ordering blind like before with products showing no reviews or evaluations or feedback.....No written reviews either and none with photos so again trial and error with a hair more confidence these will fit and work. These use stock pushrod geometry and are non-adjustable unlike my last ones. So a much easier expected install. I hope anyway.... we will see when they arrive....

99 Black Bird T/A

iTrader: (4)

Those 853's were from a 1999 or 2000 Z28. Pretty sure the latter.

LS1Formulation

iTrader: (13)

But still, you haven't answered the question numerous people have asked: Why are you trying to run these roller rockers when 1200+ HP LS builds are running stock rockers with a trunnion upgrade? I've heard nothing but bad things about trying to run aftermarket rockers, unless you're shelling out the coin for a Jesel or Crower full shaft rocker kit. I mean, if you come from the big block world, then you may have assumed that the factory rockers weren't up to the task, as they weren't on any big or small block, but factory Gen III or IV rockers flat out work, period. I just hate to see you cause yourself so much hassle when you don't need to.

41ApacheWarParty

Well first I saw how horrible the valves and seats in the perimeter heads were and I don't know anything about the block so I assume the worst and plan for the worst which in this case the stock rockers that I always hear folks saying they are ticking time bombs and will implode if not taken care of and ill guess someone who owned this before i bought it took terrible care of it. So not wanting the stock arms to implode inside the engine while i had it apart... I figured I would upgrade the valve train while it was apart. Then I had to alter the strategy since I got the new heads (TY Sir Wade) I then looked at all the roller lifters and they looked brand new and they were not stock so when someone put this engine in the car those lifters were replaced.
If I knew about these part sites claiming parts fit when they did not, of course I would not have purchased them but I always was taught on the big blocks anything you can do to reduce friction. DO IT!!! Save yourself headaches and get good rockers and lifters and free up some horsepower and eliminate friction heat and stock old style rockers had a similar type of setup where a stamped steel rocker had a flat pad to push down on the top of the valve stem instead of rolling back n forth on top of it so the stock LS rockers while a curved pad was still a pad that would develop friction and potential metal to metal contact, you have a wear point for metal shavings, in this case looks more like micro metal dust sprinkles instead of shards of metal but still a wear point that I thought if you eliminate those metal to metal wear points you can greatly increase longevity just like anyone would do on a standard small block chevy or big block chevys from the 50s 60s 70s 80s and 90s right? I did not know because the design changed on these rockers that the same thing would not happen... why would these not have the same effect as the old stamped style rockers with the pushrod into the arms stamped cup or other end on valve stem not have the same results as yesteryear small and big blocks??? I did not buy roller rockers to try to eeek out .33 horsepower, I did it to make the engine last as long as possible and run well. ( all before knowing it was an iron 5.3.... was going off the fact it was the stock aluminum 5.7 that should have been in there to begin with) so I wanted to get as long of a life out of the aluminum 5.7 as I could. Remember I started acquiring parts in February and March of 2022 preparing for the day I'd rip into it and upgrade everything I could for that longevity goal. The HP and TQ increases were of course a bonus but the #1 objective was /is longevity with HP increase and a cam selection to bump HP up with a friendly non violent valve train not a valvetrain destroyer type of cam. I was going to get the Tick Polluter the original one they made not one of the newer ones they make now because it was more valve train friendly vs the stage 2..3..4 versions they offer now and then I saw the ASA high lift hot cam and thought that would be even better choice since I was not going race car but fun high Rev fun street car strategy.
that's all I can say as to why parts choices were what they were and as I both:
1. Learned more about LS engines
2. Learned I did not have the aluminum 5.7 in it anymore but an iron 5.3
3. Learned the websites claiming xxxx parts fit all LS engines/heads when they DONT!!! (ESPECIALLY PERIMETER BOLT STYLE HEADS/COVERS) these perimeter heads were what affected this build the most as i tried xxx parts and learned they would not fit because of the bolt bosses inside them and then after sourcing from Wade these new heads that the old perimeter heads were in the worst shape. I'm surprised the car even had an ounce of compression in each cylinder, it was amazing to me they were in such horrid shape... that it ran as well as it did is shocking to say the least.
so with each step learning more about LS engines and Learning how bad some of these parts were inside it kept taking me down different paths and developing new strategies based on new information. Upon those discoveries I had to be adaptable and as flexible as I could be with my strategy with this project. Anyone can say long after the fact that you should have opted for XXX or YYY instead of going ZZZ OR "Monday Morning Quarterbacking/hindsight etc. But when you are in the middle of it and discovering new found issues and try to fix them or resolve them as you go you end up with a project taking much longer than anticipated and spend more $ and learn more skills and knowledge for future reference and projects that is the upside of it. Next LS engine I do I'll have the knkedge skills and I've acquired over 1000 dollars worth of LS specialty tools because I am sure I'll be building more of these things now that I feel alot more comfortable with them vs before I did all this.

Fast355

I am also not a huge fan of the stock rockers not having a wear reducing roller tip, but they do work very well with a trunion upgrade compared to the old stamped steel rockers.

LS1Formulation

iTrader: (13)

Thanks, Apache. I appreciate the well thought out answer. I totally get wanting to reduce friction and/or increase longevity. I myself haven't seen factory rocker arms get worn out, however. The curved pad gets a nice polish to it, but that's about it. Just be aware of the issues others have had in trying to go with a full roller rocker, they're not as good as they seem.

BigBlackCamaro

Yes you can. The roller needs to be centered on the valve tip right?
Take a disassembled head and slap any one of the valves in it, put one rocker on with only the rocker bolt. Take all the slack out with your hands and adjust the bolt to get the roller on the center of the valve tip by seating the valve and pulling up on the pushrod side of the lifter.
At that time it will be in the position it will be running if everything is adjusted properly and with the correct pushrods.

Then you move it through the motion of opening the valve while pushing the valve against the rocker and pulling up on the pushrod end of the rocker. You will see rocker to head clearance exactly as it will be when it's all done and running.

If I am confused about anything it would be why you're so persistent on using shaft mounted rockers on such a mild engine.

You've created this mystery novel, I'm serious, you can't not read when you post something.

41ApacheWarParty

WRONG!!!!

A roller tip rocker will not sit at exact center of a valve stem..... at a relaxed position it will sit just a slight hair off center and as it depresses the valve it rolls to and then past center of stem to the other side of off center as it pushes the valve down and then rolls back as the spring pushes the valve back up. So the roller tip never sits at the exact same location while it's under any sort of movement from the cam and rolls back and forth from one side off center to the other side of off center. If you start the cycle at dead center depending how much lift which will increase the travel of the roller tip on the stem you could actually roll off the end of the valve stem if you have a really huge cam lobe pushing the assembly. I realize these cams at .600 or .650 lift probably won't have that happen but I cannot say that with 100% certainty. I'm learning all these LS nuances as I go forward with this project. Like why are my header bolts so weird and why is one header bolt shorter than the other 5 per side and where does the short one go???

Anyway see you learned something new today... that with roller tips you don't want your starting point to be dead center or you may encounter issues.

41ApacheWarParty

yes sir..... I am finding that out. If this Pro form set does not deliver then I'm just going to order a new stock set with the Trunion upgrade and call it done because this is getting stoooopid with all this back n forth nonsense with summit and insane time wasted waiting for parts to arrive. Apparently with summit if you have a part being exchanged for another part they refuse to send you the replacement out of their in stock inventory they drop ship the replacement part from the manufacturer. Why they do this I do not know. But that's what 2 of the folks on the phone told me and that's why they show 10 sets of the scorpion rocker arms in stock but the manufacturer has them back ordered until 2.14.2023 and I refuse to wait another month and a half plus or more so hence the pro form decision.

Jay

BigBlackCamaro

Really, I learned something while you ask where the one short header bolt goes? It should be obvious your engine was pieced together garbage from the hack you bought it from. That's all he could find for the fifth bolt.

Ok then, in the above explanation I didn't word it like you're a total moron like most people do. But you got my point and yet have the nerve to tell me I don't know this.
I know the roller won't stay at dead center, but I'm explaining how it could have been mocked up to check the rocker to head clearance.

Didn't you post a picture of the roller sitting on the exhaust port side of the retainer and say duh it looks like it has plenty of clearance now.
Tell me, in the rollers travel across the valve stem tip at what point does it roll across the retainer?

wannafbody

iTrader: (2)

I never hurts to call Summit and talk to someone to double check fitment before ordering.

LS1Formulation

iTrader: (13)

I don't think Apache was trying to talk down to you, typed words without spoken nuance tend to sound that way at times. For anyone reading this, here is a pic of what correct rocker arm geometry looks like:
https://www.motortrend.com/uploads/s...TG_diagram.jpg
If you blue the valve tip and turn the engine over, it will create a witness mark over the very center of the valve stem diameter, but the arc begins and ends on the intake side of the valve tip.

LS299S10

A typical witness mark is .060 wide with the center of that being very close to the c/l of the valve stem tip.

cula8r

iTrader: (2)

Your engine, your ride and you can do as you please but I guess what some are wondering about is you're budgeting on the build with used gen III parts, lapping vales and now you wanna spend 600.00 bucks on rocker arms. We get it that rollers are easier on the valve tips but the GM stuff is proven to be good up to a certain rpm with a trunnion upgrade, after all its on thousands if not millions of LS engines in stock form.
Here are some rockers that WS6 store has for a reasonably price that'll work fine with a trunnion upgrade already on them. Talk to them......they know LS engines better that the customer service guys at Summit.
http://www.ws6project.com/user_stor/...oducts_id=6480
I would stay away from the look a like rockers that seem to fit the bill but are made from inferior materials that will give you headaches down the road. Haven't you had enough up until now? Whatever you choose post up, maybe the old dogs can learn a new trick. Keep plugging away......hope things work out in the end.

41ApacheWarParty

I took a photo of the rocker assemblies in their stands laying in the head not bolted down to the threaded pedestals. For a visual and for a rough idea if they would fit or if I would again have clearance issues with the perimeter bolt bosses...flutes or whatever you want to call them inside the perimeter of the head..... that was not a mock up of getting things installed measured and geometry figured out that was just checking for interference


As far as the lying dumbass *** clown that built and sold me the car....no one is arguing that point whatsoever.

And roller tip rockers shown by the above photo (thank you LS1Formulation...appreciate the diagram showing others the starting point...travel across centerline back to offcenter and then roll back to initial position under no load. That diagram is perfect) if you started and setup the geometry starting under no load at dead center valve stem and the ramp of the cam lobe starts pushing up then you will most likely encounter problems because you will be too close or roll off the end of the valve stem.
also you have to remember the rockers in that initial photo were in the #806 heads and now that I am running Wade's #853 heads i dont have to worry about those bolt bosses anymore leaving me now to only have to deal with back edge head clearance not inbetween the rockers as well as the push rod side. As Wade had indicated some time ago... you cannot compare the heads and clearancing of the 2 are totally different and each come with their own set of issues needed to work around and that's what I am doing.. or trying to do. And learning an awful lot in the process.

1st set of rockers in perimeter style heads...covers Easily a no go

Set #2 rocker arms again in perimeter style heads and covers NOT bolted down in the heads just laying there to check interference with the perimeter bolt bosses...flutes

Here showing with the stock length push rods the shafts would not bolt down to the stands so custom xx.xxx Length pushrods would be needed but again these were in the perimeter style heads not the new heads i got from Wade....... so i needed to wait for the machine shop to finish their work before i could start getting my geometry setup and to see if this rocker arm set would work or not.

41ApacheWarParty

Photo provided by LS1Formulation

Thank you sir for providing this image