Cam Experts...Bent Pushrods With New Cam/Heads. Can I not math right?
12-11-2022, 06:30 AM
#41
On The Tree
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What brand?
12-11-2022, 07:08 AM
#42
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12-11-2022, 01:27 PM
#43
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Thread Starter
Update...passed leak down so I threw the shorter pushrods in just for craps and giggles. Just as noisy valve train. I'll pull it down later to check for bent pushrods. I dont expect there to be any though.
Not sure what to be looking for from here. Maybe the pushrods are now too short causing the noise or maybe the lifters just suck. I researched more on the morels and didn't find anything bad though.
Not sure what to be looking for from here. Maybe the pushrods are now too short causing the noise or maybe the lifters just suck. I researched more on the morels and didn't find anything bad though.
Last edited by Zac28; 12-12-2022 at 05:04 AM.
12-12-2022, 05:04 AM
#44
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What are peoples opinions on the lifters (Morel 6504 (old 7717))? Do you guys think its possible these lifters cant handle the spring pressure? I know 2 Aussie guys said they are considered junk down there, however I cant find anything really putting them down. In fact I found several places where people were recommending them because they were quiet.
Here is a link to a video that sounds almost exactly like the noise I'm getting. Skip to :30 in
Here is a link to a video that sounds almost exactly like the noise I'm getting. Skip to :30 in
Last edited by Zac28; 12-12-2022 at 06:07 AM.
12-12-2022, 11:14 AM
#45
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Took a quick video during lunch. This is my actual truck. Keep in mind this truck has stock manifolds and GM 30# injectors so all the noise you hear is just valvetrain. Also the video doesnt capture it the best and the noise is much more pronounced in person.
12-12-2022, 05:47 PM
#46
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Is it oiling? As in oil to the rockers thru the pushrods? I think you have coil bind, or something up top is bottoming against the guide/seal. If the springs are coil binding, or the locks/retainers are hitting the guide(s), shorter pushrods will do nothing to improve that situation. Puzzling why it's just one head? Who set up the valvetrain? Are all 8 pushrods bent on just that bank?
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12-13-2022, 06:09 AM
#47
Read the thread. Zero answers on PTV clearance (doesn't know how to check it), no idea what the lifter preload is (don't think it's important because they're all torqued to 22 ft lbs), no idea if the springs are coil binding.
Then...Well maybe only one pushrod is bent, I rolled it on the front lawn.
Really need tocheck all this properly.
Then...Well maybe only one pushrod is bent, I rolled it on the front lawn.
Really need tocheck all this properly.
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12-13-2022, 08:33 AM
#48
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Post #45
That dosen't sound like normal valvetrain noise to me.
I had a set of Lunati High RPM lifters in the LSX but replaced them with Johnson's when I installed my Brodix BR7's which are more forgiving lifters in terms of preload. The Lunati lifters were essentially Morel and those operate in the .015-.030 preload range with .015 being ideal. Leave the valve covers off so you can see if the lifters are pumping oil through the PR's.
If the PR's are too short it causes the lifters to bounce off the cam lobes which can cause damage to all the components but the likelyhood of a bent pushrod would come from having too long of a pushrod which turns the lifter into a solid lifter which is bad and a quick death to a lifter. If too long and you did run into coil bind I could see that bending pushrods as well as cause damage to the other parts of the valvetrain. Having only one bent pushrod seems odd to me as I'd think you'd have damage to some of the others too.
Could it have been that one PR was not sitting in the cup and that was what bent it? Who knows but you do need to verify that you have the correct length pushrods and this can still be done using hydraulic lifters. Get a lifter on the base of the cam and using an adjustable length pushrod measuring tool determine zero lash. Find out what preload the lifters need and add that to your measurement and that's the length you'll need. I'd do this to some of the other lifters as a doublecheck or until I was confident that I had the correct length for zero lash.
That dosen't sound like normal valvetrain noise to me.
I had a set of Lunati High RPM lifters in the LSX but replaced them with Johnson's when I installed my Brodix BR7's which are more forgiving lifters in terms of preload. The Lunati lifters were essentially Morel and those operate in the .015-.030 preload range with .015 being ideal. Leave the valve covers off so you can see if the lifters are pumping oil through the PR's.
If the PR's are too short it causes the lifters to bounce off the cam lobes which can cause damage to all the components but the likelyhood of a bent pushrod would come from having too long of a pushrod which turns the lifter into a solid lifter which is bad and a quick death to a lifter. If too long and you did run into coil bind I could see that bending pushrods as well as cause damage to the other parts of the valvetrain. Having only one bent pushrod seems odd to me as I'd think you'd have damage to some of the others too.
Could it have been that one PR was not sitting in the cup and that was what bent it? Who knows but you do need to verify that you have the correct length pushrods and this can still be done using hydraulic lifters. Get a lifter on the base of the cam and using an adjustable length pushrod measuring tool determine zero lash. Find out what preload the lifters need and add that to your measurement and that's the length you'll need. I'd do this to some of the other lifters as a doublecheck or until I was confident that I had the correct length for zero lash.
12-13-2022, 03:06 PM
#49
On The Tree
Thread Starter
Post #25 …Got my new bore scope last night and got a pretty good look. All passenger cylinders looked good.
Post #43…passed leak down
Post #6 The coil bind comment got me thinking so I did some math - bind is listed as 1.070. Installed height listed as 1.780...so 1.070-1.780=.710 - .080 for bind gap and I "should" be safe to run .630 lift. …….Got to check during lunch and the installed height is spot on…..
YES! Please follow your statement and read the entire post before commenting useless garbage. If you arent going to make a useful post just keep moving.
12-13-2022, 03:12 PM
#50
On The Tree
Thread Starter
Post #45
That dosen't sound like normal valvetrain noise to me.
I had a set of Lunati High RPM lifters in the LSX but replaced them with Johnson's when I installed my Brodix BR7's which are more forgiving lifters in terms of preload. The Lunati lifters were essentially Morel and those operate in the .015-.030 preload range with .015 being ideal. Leave the valve covers off so you can see if the lifters are pumping oil through the PR's.
If the PR's are too short it causes the lifters to bounce off the cam lobes which can cause damage to all the components but the likelyhood of a bent pushrod would come from having too long of a pushrod which turns the lifter into a solid lifter which is bad and a quick death to a lifter. If too long and you did run into coil bind I could see that bending pushrods as well as cause damage to the other parts of the valvetrain. Having only one bent pushrod seems odd to me as I'd think you'd have damage to some of the others too.
Could it have been that one PR was not sitting in the cup and that was what bent it? Who knows but you do need to verify that you have the correct length pushrods and this can still be done using hydraulic lifters. Get a lifter on the base of the cam and using an adjustable length pushrod measuring tool determine zero lash. Find out what preload the lifters need and add that to your measurement and that's the length you'll need. I'd do this to some of the other lifters as a doublecheck or until I was confident that I had the correct length for zero lash.
That dosen't sound like normal valvetrain noise to me.
I had a set of Lunati High RPM lifters in the LSX but replaced them with Johnson's when I installed my Brodix BR7's which are more forgiving lifters in terms of preload. The Lunati lifters were essentially Morel and those operate in the .015-.030 preload range with .015 being ideal. Leave the valve covers off so you can see if the lifters are pumping oil through the PR's.
If the PR's are too short it causes the lifters to bounce off the cam lobes which can cause damage to all the components but the likelyhood of a bent pushrod would come from having too long of a pushrod which turns the lifter into a solid lifter which is bad and a quick death to a lifter. If too long and you did run into coil bind I could see that bending pushrods as well as cause damage to the other parts of the valvetrain. Having only one bent pushrod seems odd to me as I'd think you'd have damage to some of the others too.
Could it have been that one PR was not sitting in the cup and that was what bent it? Who knows but you do need to verify that you have the correct length pushrods and this can still be done using hydraulic lifters. Get a lifter on the base of the cam and using an adjustable length pushrod measuring tool determine zero lash. Find out what preload the lifters need and add that to your measurement and that's the length you'll need. I'd do this to some of the other lifters as a doublecheck or until I was confident that I had the correct length for zero lash.
I am waiting for coil wiring harness extenders to come in so I can move the coil packs out the way and check the oil flow, but I know its getting some because theres residual on the rockers, maybe not all it needs though.
As far as there being only one bent PR. The one that bent was on a rocker I found loose when investigating the noise. My guess is either I missed it in the torque sequence or there was too much oil in the bolt hole causing bad torque and it backed out once it got hot. Thats just speculation but the one next to it could hear the air escaping when I broke it loose and I blew out a bunch of oil.
Preload from Morel is .060. I measured it with a PR length tool before motor when into truck and the math is good. All measurements were taken with a caliper and all measurements done in overall length. I’m starting to wonder if the lifters weren’t pumped all the way up when I measured. In turn causing a shorter measurement, resulting in a longer PR. Then the lifter pumped up and they couldn’t take it. Maybe the noise I hear now is a bunch of blown lifters.
Looking more into Morel specs I found out these are their "street performance" and they only advertise recommended spring open pressure at 280-380lbs. The valve springs are rated 400lbs at 1.130”. Not sure I’m getting quite there with only .604 of lift but maybe with too much PR. The Lunati ones you mentioned must have been their HLT version. They only take .015-.030 as you said.
Last edited by Zac28; 12-13-2022 at 03:19 PM.
12-13-2022, 03:41 PM
#51
You should be able to tell the difference when measuring preload. If you can't move the rocker back against the lifter, you have bottomed out the lifter spring. There are some interesting threads about more vs less preload elsewhere on this forum, most of which left me more confused than not. Your lifters should have a preload range, at least my Johnsons do, shoot for the middle, and make sure you can feel the spring when measuring the pushrod length.
12-13-2022, 05:14 PM
#52
Since the passenger side was the noisy side Ive only been looking at it but so far I've found both I/E bent.
Got my new bore scope last night and got a pretty good look. All passenger cylinders looked good. To check max lift I tried to get measurements off the rocker and then straight off the PR but I think the lifter bled down because I the readings kept dropping. Max I saw was in the beginning at only had around .550 and this was after turning the motor over a few times to check for PTV damage. From there it kept dropping to .300 when I gave up.
With no damage to the pistons I'm sorta leaning back to spring binding from too long PR. I wonder if theres something funky about the lifters thats not letting me measure accurately. Although the last time I measured for PR distance the motor was run the night before, not turned over and I measured on a rocker that didn't have pressure so I wouldnt think it leaked down with no pressure on it.
I'm still lost as to what this is. I think my next step is leak down test and go from there. If no good then I'll pull the heads and see whats up. If it passes....idk..maybe swap to shorter PR and cross my fingers. This is a pretty budget build but obviously I'm not looking to waste money on an avoidable issue.
Got my new bore scope last night and got a pretty good look. All passenger cylinders looked good. To check max lift I tried to get measurements off the rocker and then straight off the PR but I think the lifter bled down because I the readings kept dropping. Max I saw was in the beginning at only had around .550 and this was after turning the motor over a few times to check for PTV damage. From there it kept dropping to .300 when I gave up.
With no damage to the pistons I'm sorta leaning back to spring binding from too long PR. I wonder if theres something funky about the lifters thats not letting me measure accurately. Although the last time I measured for PR distance the motor was run the night before, not turned over and I measured on a rocker that didn't have pressure so I wouldnt think it leaked down with no pressure on it.
I'm still lost as to what this is. I think my next step is leak down test and go from there. If no good then I'll pull the heads and see whats up. If it passes....idk..maybe swap to shorter PR and cross my fingers. This is a pretty budget build but obviously I'm not looking to waste money on an avoidable issue.
12-13-2022, 05:41 PM
#53
On The Tree
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12-13-2022, 06:19 PM
#54
Sure thing pal. Hope ya get er figgered out.
As far as there being only one bent PR. The one that bent was on a rocker I found loose when investigating the noise. My guess is either I missed it in the torque sequence or there was too much oil in the bolt hole causing bad torque and it backed out once it got hot. Thats just speculation but the one next to it could hear the air escaping when I broke it loose and I blew out a bunch of oil.
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12-13-2022, 07:01 PM
#55
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Wow! Big Black Camaro is only stating truth, and we're all trying to help you, Zac28. It sounds like you need some help with engine building, for sure. For one thing, you need to get 1 hydraulic lifter like you're running, disassemble it, and invert the pushrod cup (search online/YT for instructions), and basically make a solid lifter our of a hydraulic one. Then there's no bleeding down. Not trying to be a smart ***, or critical, but this build sounds like someone doesn't know how to set up a valvetrain, but doesn't want to be told what they did wrong, either. Grinder out, and best of luck figuring it out........
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12-13-2022, 07:53 PM
#56
On The Tree
Thread Starter
Wow! Big Black Camaro is only stating truth, and we're all trying to help you, Zac28. It sounds like you need some help with engine building, for sure. For one thing, you need to get 1 hydraulic lifter like you're running, disassemble it, and invert the pushrod cup (search online/YT for instructions), and basically make a solid lifter our of a hydraulic one. Then there's no bleeding down. Not trying to be a smart ***, or critical, but this build sounds like someone doesn't know how to set up a valvetrain, but doesn't want to be told what they did wrong, either. Grinder out, and best of luck figuring it out........
I make and made mistakes here and dont mind being called out that I'm doing something wrong but again, he made a post with wrong information and didn't give anything helpful.
I've measured preload at least 5 times and again tonight. The last time I made 100% sure the lifter was hard as a rock. It measured the same as every other time, 0 lash, torqued to 22lbs, 7.380. Morel wants .060. The 7.435 pushrods should be fine.
12-13-2022, 08:56 PM
#57
Your post is helpful and I do appreciate help but I dont see his comments as helpful. He gave no advice. Instead he posted implied things like I didn't think preload was important and I rolled a pushrod on the front lawn to check it.
I make and made mistakes here and dont mind being called out that I'm doing something wrong but again, he made a post with wrong information and didn't give anything helpful.
I've measured preload at least 5 times and again tonight. The last time I made 100% sure the lifter was hard as a rock. It measured the same as every other time, 0 lash, torqued to 22lbs, 7.380. Morel wants .060. The 7.435 pushrods should be fine.
I make and made mistakes here and dont mind being called out that I'm doing something wrong but again, he made a post with wrong information and didn't give anything helpful.
I've measured preload at least 5 times and again tonight. The last time I made 100% sure the lifter was hard as a rock. It measured the same as every other time, 0 lash, torqued to 22lbs, 7.380. Morel wants .060. The 7.435 pushrods should be fine.
The reason it was asked how many turns to get from zero lash to tight on the rocker bolt is because you can get a very close approximation as to how much preload you have. Theres a thread about that here somewhere but I just had this saved from it:
.50T = .039"
.75T = .058"
1.00T = .078"
1.25T = .098"
1.50T = .117"
1.75T = .137"
2.00T = .156"
Example 1.25 turns = .098
I even checked it once, very rough set up but the results were close enough to exact.
Now is the problem bent pushrods or noise?
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12-14-2022, 05:11 AM
#59
On The Tree
Thread Starter
The bent pushrod was with the loose rocker (I guess it was bent) If it is bent it's most likely because being loose it rested on the lifter body or fell out of the rocker hole at least once and that took out all of the lash causing spring bind up and bending the pushrod.
The reason it was asked how many turns to get from zero lash to tight on the rocker bolt is because you can get a very close approximation as to how much preload you have. Theres a thread about that here somewhere but I just had this saved from it:
.50T = .039"
.75T = .058"
1.00T = .078"
1.25T = .098"
1.50T = .117"
1.75T = .137"
2.00T = .156"
Example 1.25 turns = .098
I even checked it once, very rough set up but the results were close enough to exact.
https://youtu.be/YUSCiZaZ3OQ
Now is the problem bent pushrods or noise?
The reason it was asked how many turns to get from zero lash to tight on the rocker bolt is because you can get a very close approximation as to how much preload you have. Theres a thread about that here somewhere but I just had this saved from it:
.50T = .039"
.75T = .058"
1.00T = .078"
1.25T = .098"
1.50T = .117"
1.75T = .137"
2.00T = .156"
Example 1.25 turns = .098
I even checked it once, very rough set up but the results were close enough to exact.
https://youtu.be/YUSCiZaZ3OQ
Now is the problem bent pushrods or noise?
Yes. The bent pushrod was likely do to me not torqueing it down properly in the torque sequence, thus causing to back out, resulting in a bent rod from it hitting the rocker.
I know why I was asked how many turns and I dont like the idea estimating turns so I use a different method. Doing it the way listed below also gets me pretty spot on pretty quick.
Using a caliper, torque wrench and feeler gauge. It goes like...
1. adjust PR length tool to what you think is close. So say I set length tool at 7.360 (measured with calipers) and install
2. then install length tool and rocker, torque to 22lbs
3. use feeler gauge to measure gap between rocker tip and valve head
4. add feeler gauge measurements to length tool. Say feeler gauge was .020 so .020 + 7.360= 7.380
5. remove rocker and length tool . Adjust tool to 7.380
6. reinstall rocker with length tool and torque to 22lbs. If not at 0 lash repeat steps 3-6 until you have 0 lash at 22lbs.
Last edited by Zac28; 12-14-2022 at 07:19 AM.
12-14-2022, 05:11 AM
#60
TECH Fanatic
You can always pull the fuel pump fuse/relay, remove valve covers, and spin the motor with the starter. Doing that could show you if you are dealing with collapsed/failed lifters.