GMT 800 2500HD LQ4 Cam Input
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G Atsma (03-30-2023)
03-31-2023, 04:04 PM
#22
Hey everyone. To close the loop here I decided against doing this to the truck. Just not worth it. I drove the truck around like I usually do and never got over 2500 RPM. It's a 6500# 2500HD truck that gets terrible gas mileage as it is, I'm certainly not out romping around in it. I also have an all aluminum trailer and lighter weight fox mustang when towing that is only about 5000# total so this doesn't come even close to taxing the truck. I saved the $$ and am using it elsewhere. Really appreciate everyone's input though!!!
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68Formula (04-05-2023)
03-31-2023, 04:41 PM
#23
I'm doing something very similar. I've got a 05 2500HD and I had purchased a 6.0 earlier from an 04 that getting built then gonna get swapped in. I'd say get the Truck Norris Cam, here's some explanation as to why. q
Some quick context, I'm rebuilding the motor, and things have sorta snowballed. originally it was gonna be simple gen 4 rods (which you already have), LQ9 flat top pistons with vakve reliefs from rock auto and stock heads milled and ported. I've since got Manley rods, Forged pistons, and 799 heads. flat tops should yeild 10.6 ish comp with this combo. then I got a TBSS intake, 54lb injectors, and headers. probably gonna throw stock heads back on later and turbo. anyway, just some context because cam choice is sorta based on 3 things - motor combo, desired operating range, and gear
Originally I was gonna go with the Truck Norris or TSP Stage 2 truck high lift. I decided to go with a Sum 8720r1. It should rev to 6500rpm and still make strong torque thanks to the long exhaust duration and 112 LSA and 2deg advance.
If your not gonna do anything else to the motor (to raise compression) the Truck Norris Cam is gonna work best. The early intake closing and tighter LSA of 107 will give very good torque down low. and I believe it has a 224 exhaust duration which should still allow it to rev a little bit. you gain power everywhere with that cam. perfect drop in cam
Basically a tighter LSA = more low end torque. Advancing a cam shifts the curve to favor torque while allowing a looser LSA which results in a more street friendly cam. that being said a truck need the torque. I only went with a 112 LSA cam because in theory it compromises a little low end torque for a smoother idle and the DCR will be slightly lower so I can run flat tops which should yield a better burn (more power) and allow me to run 87 should I want
The summit torqunator is a good cam but it would make more torque if they got rid of the crazy advance and tightened the LSA to around a 108 which is what these 6.0s want
On a side not, I did manage to take a second off 0 - 60 with a quick Maf adjustment for my cold air, and some power enrichment tunning
Some quick context, I'm rebuilding the motor, and things have sorta snowballed. originally it was gonna be simple gen 4 rods (which you already have), LQ9 flat top pistons with vakve reliefs from rock auto and stock heads milled and ported. I've since got Manley rods, Forged pistons, and 799 heads. flat tops should yeild 10.6 ish comp with this combo. then I got a TBSS intake, 54lb injectors, and headers. probably gonna throw stock heads back on later and turbo. anyway, just some context because cam choice is sorta based on 3 things - motor combo, desired operating range, and gear
Originally I was gonna go with the Truck Norris or TSP Stage 2 truck high lift. I decided to go with a Sum 8720r1. It should rev to 6500rpm and still make strong torque thanks to the long exhaust duration and 112 LSA and 2deg advance.
If your not gonna do anything else to the motor (to raise compression) the Truck Norris Cam is gonna work best. The early intake closing and tighter LSA of 107 will give very good torque down low. and I believe it has a 224 exhaust duration which should still allow it to rev a little bit. you gain power everywhere with that cam. perfect drop in cam
Basically a tighter LSA = more low end torque. Advancing a cam shifts the curve to favor torque while allowing a looser LSA which results in a more street friendly cam. that being said a truck need the torque. I only went with a 112 LSA cam because in theory it compromises a little low end torque for a smoother idle and the DCR will be slightly lower so I can run flat tops which should yield a better burn (more power) and allow me to run 87 should I want
The summit torqunator is a good cam but it would make more torque if they got rid of the crazy advance and tightened the LSA to around a 108 which is what these 6.0s want
On a side not, I did manage to take a second off 0 - 60 with a quick Maf adjustment for my cold air, and some power enrichment tunning
Last edited by Jacob VH; 03-31-2023 at 05:00 PM.
03-31-2023, 04:51 PM
#24
Last edited by Jacob VH; 03-31-2023 at 05:37 PM.
03-31-2023, 04:53 PM
#25
this is the way to go, and if you get springs get the regular truck Norris cam. tighter LSA is better for the big motor on a truck. The TSP stage 2 has an LSA that's way too loose
03-31-2023, 07:51 PM
#26
TECH Resident
Efans and tune would still be a VERY worth while mod. It not only prolongs water pump life, but helps in every other way. They are 100% bolt in also with easy hand tools and can be done in a day. Make sure to get a colder t stat and higher output alternator at same time, but those are std maintenance things also. It made a huge difference on all 3 of my trucks even unloaded.
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03-31-2023, 08:23 PM
#27
If we surmise they didn't bake any advance into the BTR, it'd put the IVC within 1/2 degree (depending on whether you believe the cam card 107.5 or their advertise 107 LSA). The BTR starts to take over at that at peak because the larger overlap is aiding to draw the intake @ high rpm WOT. Since the exhaust valve closes -4* BTDC (@0.050"), the Summit will still be more responsive at part throttle as well (slight edge).
On a 6.0L the low end and mid-range torque delta will be more pronounced, and likely around ~5500rpm the BTR would start taking with maybe another 5-10hp on the very top. Summit really did their homework. Both cams are, and perform, very similar.
Last edited by 68Formula; 04-01-2023 at 07:25 AM.
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blackdak318 (04-03-2023)
03-31-2023, 09:13 PM
#28
TECH Resident
One thing to consider on tight LSA cams, while they trap more cylinder pressure from their advanced IVC they also have more overlap. Exhaust reversion will reduce the torque down off-idle through about 2,000 rpm especially at part throttle. I have a small 218/228 @ 0.050 on a 108 LSA in an 11:1 383. With 61.5* of overlap, it is not too happy under load much below 2,000 rpm. It really does not clean up until about 1,500 rpm and I feel a cam with less overlap would have more low-speed torque and better fuel mileage. In gear at 850 rpm with the ac on it only pulls 12-13 in/hg of vacuum. It is not a coast around town at 1,200 rpm with the converter locked up kind of cam. Lock it too early and the vacuum drops off sharply and the engine chugs and misfires from all the exhaust dilution of the intake charge. My converter stalls about 2,900 rpm, get it up on the converter a bit and it makes big block like torque though. In 4th gear I do not lock the converter until 65 mph at light throttle. I am going to either a 204/214 on a 112 or a 214/222 on a 114 in the near future because my future plans involve a 6L90E and a stock stall speed converter.
Last edited by Fast355; 03-31-2023 at 09:22 PM.
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G Atsma (04-01-2023)
04-01-2023, 07:38 AM
#29
I agree with both your posts above, Fast355 - but I'd want to add that duration plays a huge part in the amount of overlap a cam has. My stage 4 LS3 BTR cam has 15.5* of overlap @.050 with a 113 LSA, but a Summit Big Truck Torkinator has - 5* of overlap @.050, even though it has 3 degrees LESS LSA, 110*. Also, the larger an engine is in displacement, the more overlap it will tolerate, to an extent.
04-01-2023, 09:19 AM
#30
the biggest a 6.0 cam for a truck should be in theory is about 218/222 108 which would yield a 4° advance.
stock gears 4l80e 4.10 and stock tires these things rev higher during cruise anyways and with a 2500rpm converter there's not much point focusing on power below 1500rpm. From my logging on the stock motor 87 it pulls crazy timing under any decent load 3rd or 4th below like 1800rpm.
Richard's test sorta show one thing. That cam motion little choppa cam with crazy durations performed amazing because it has a very tight LSA. 108 and then a 3deg advance.
I'd say even the cam I'm using with my build is not ideal, I'd be better of with something like a 220/220 108lsa. But all the cam manufacturers have just weird stuff. Everything has tradeoffs unless you get a custom grind. That being said a 112 +3 will yield a tamer idle, and possibly better street manors. But then again, it's a truck,it's heavy, it's not gonna jump from low end torque it needs torque to help it move
04-03-2023, 10:43 AM
#31
TECH Resident
Anyone could tell you that wouldn't be happy below even like 2500rpm. that's 7° @ 0.050 overlap. For Truck stuff and daily drivers I've been told 4° is pretty much the limit, and that once you have you have the correct LSA for the motor size, then you can determine durations from that
the biggest a 6.0 cam for a truck should be in theory is about 218/222 108 which would yield a 4° advance.
stock gears 4l80e 4.10 and stock tires these things rev higher during cruise anyways and with a 2500rpm converter there's not much point focusing on power below 1500rpm. From my logging on the stock motor 87 it pulls crazy timing under any decent load 3rd or 4th below like 1800rpm.
Richard's test sorta show one thing. That cam motion little choppa cam with crazy durations performed amazing because it has a very tight LSA. 108 and then a 3deg advance.
I'd say even the cam I'm using with my build is not ideal, I'd be better of with something like a 220/220 108lsa. But all the cam manufacturers have just weird stuff. Everything has tradeoffs unless you get a custom grind. That being said a 112 +3 will yield a tamer idle, and possibly better street manors. But then again, it's a truck,it's heavy, it's not gonna jump from low end torque it needs torque to help it move
the biggest a 6.0 cam for a truck should be in theory is about 218/222 108 which would yield a 4° advance.
stock gears 4l80e 4.10 and stock tires these things rev higher during cruise anyways and with a 2500rpm converter there's not much point focusing on power below 1500rpm. From my logging on the stock motor 87 it pulls crazy timing under any decent load 3rd or 4th below like 1800rpm.
Richard's test sorta show one thing. That cam motion little choppa cam with crazy durations performed amazing because it has a very tight LSA. 108 and then a 3deg advance.
I'd say even the cam I'm using with my build is not ideal, I'd be better of with something like a 220/220 108lsa. But all the cam manufacturers have just weird stuff. Everything has tradeoffs unless you get a custom grind. That being said a 112 +3 will yield a tamer idle, and possibly better street manors. But then again, it's a truck,it's heavy, it's not gonna jump from low end torque it needs torque to help it move
My converter stalls about 2,900 so it has no problem pulling away from the line. The reason you want torque down at 1,200-1,500 rpm is to be able to coast around town with the converter locked. Otherwise you build more heat in the transmission and engine cooling system and drink more fuel. Honestly I feel my cam would be about perfect without the 10* duration split. 218/218 on a 108 LSA would be a stump puller in a 10.65:1 383 on E85.
Last edited by Fast355; 04-03-2023 at 11:21 AM.
04-03-2023, 02:45 PM
#32
I like this discussion! I did get a custom tune for it and it definitely woke the truck up in the higher RPM range. I just replaced the cooling system and went with the stock t stat and kept the mech fan. Prolly coulda gone with a colder t stat but don't see that being much of a big deal at all.
To add to the cam discussion I saw Cam Motion had a free cam recommendation feature. They told me this would be their best bet and recommendation:
https://cammotion.com/in-stock-ready...208-214-110-4/
To add to the cam discussion I saw Cam Motion had a free cam recommendation feature. They told me this would be their best bet and recommendation:
https://cammotion.com/in-stock-ready...208-214-110-4/
04-03-2023, 03:32 PM
#33
TECH Resident
I like this discussion! I did get a custom tune for it and it definitely woke the truck up in the higher RPM range. I just replaced the cooling system and went with the stock t stat and kept the mech fan. Prolly coulda gone with a colder t stat but don't see that being much of a big deal at all.
To add to the cam discussion I saw Cam Motion had a free cam recommendation feature. They told me this would be their best bet and recommendation:
https://cammotion.com/in-stock-ready...208-214-110-4/
To add to the cam discussion I saw Cam Motion had a free cam recommendation feature. They told me this would be their best bet and recommendation:
https://cammotion.com/in-stock-ready...208-214-110-4/
04-03-2023, 08:14 PM
#34
To add to the cam discussion I saw Cam Motion had a free cam recommendation feature. They told me this would be their best bet and recommendation:
https://cammotion.com/in-stock-ready...208-214-110-4/
https://cammotion.com/in-stock-ready...208-214-110-4/
you wouldn't have to do anything more than springs really, and if your towing lots you'll definitely like more low end. And I bet you'll see increased fuel mileage as well
You might also be able to get by with stock pump and injectors with a cam that size
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04-05-2023, 09:05 AM
#35
Definitely a good cam choice. My 6.0 had the baby 190/191 cam from the factory, so I could feel the torque drop like a rock after 4500rpm before the new cam.
After the Titan 1 truck cam, I don't get that same feeling until 5500rpm! Idles like stock. Yeah you could put a little bit bigger cam in, but there's really no need. My truck has a stick shift, so I needed torque literally off idle and this delivers. This is the cam the 6.0 truck engine should have come with.
You're gonna want to do injectors anyway. My 6.0 was at 85% duty cycle on the stock injectors before I dropped heads and a cam on it. I did have e fans and a TBSS intake though.
Anyway, I put new ones on before I put the cam in. Running about 10 to 15 percent higher duty cycle after the cam, but that's with higher flowing 2003 tahoe flex fuel injectors (Went from 60-65 to 70-75 percent).
Oh and I did pickup a little fuel mileage loaded and unloaded, but I drive like an absolute grandpa.
After the Titan 1 truck cam, I don't get that same feeling until 5500rpm! Idles like stock. Yeah you could put a little bit bigger cam in, but there's really no need. My truck has a stick shift, so I needed torque literally off idle and this delivers. This is the cam the 6.0 truck engine should have come with.
You're gonna want to do injectors anyway. My 6.0 was at 85% duty cycle on the stock injectors before I dropped heads and a cam on it. I did have e fans and a TBSS intake though.
Anyway, I put new ones on before I put the cam in. Running about 10 to 15 percent higher duty cycle after the cam, but that's with higher flowing 2003 tahoe flex fuel injectors (Went from 60-65 to 70-75 percent).
Oh and I did pickup a little fuel mileage loaded and unloaded, but I drive like an absolute grandpa.
Last edited by 07SGguy; 04-05-2023 at 09:12 AM.
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blackdak318 (04-07-2023), Jacob VH (04-06-2023)
04-06-2023, 06:31 AM
#36
ain't no way it could be cammed without injectors, although the marine 8.1 injectors might be sufficient in this case. he'd also probably want a pump as well
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blackdak318 (04-07-2023)
11-26-2023, 02:41 PM
#37
To bump this back up I did end up finding items to hot rod this truck. As posted earlier I had stopped myself from doing anything, mostly because I priced up all new items and just couldn't justify it. But over time I came across deals I couldn't say no to as follows:
- Found a complete exhaust from Speed Engineering on FB marketplace for $775 with everything needed and brand new. The dude bought it thinking he could install on an Envoy and of course, it didn't fit. There are a few very minor scrapes on one header where they tried installing it and after realizing it would not fit, listed it all for sale. It's about a $950 exhaust after taxes etc. 1 7/8" headers, 3" ORY and then their 3" single exhaust.
- Texas Speed Stage 2 Low Lift cam. The 212/218 112 .550 unit. $125 brand new. I found it using a national craigslist search engine I use. I had to pay shipping too for $25 so I have $150 into it. Got it earlier this week and it is indeed brand new and arrived without any issue. It 's not the exact cam I want, but for $150 total, it's the cam I'll happily run. It is coated with some waxy **** that is clearly for rust protection. I've never actually bought a cam that was brand new. Talked to a buddy who has and he says it is normal. Can anyone clarify what exactly this stuff is and the best way to get it off? He said he ended up just brake cleaning the hell of out his and it did eventually all come off.
- BTR .560 springs/seals and BTR upgraded trunions already installed in rockers. Found on FB marketplace, brand new still in boxes. I paid $140 for all of it. I think it's about $300 worth of stuff new. Just the rockers w/ trunions themselves are like $200.
Then on Black Friday I just grabbed all the other parts to go with it. Per summit's recommendation on another post I ended up doing Cometic .040 gaskets to bump the compression a few tenths and improve quench. New trays and then the biggest thing is I had ordered lifters from ZZP performance. The claim a modified comp 875 lifter with improved travel blah blah. They are regularly only $130 and I believe on sale for like $115. That price just felt really low considering even basic *** delphi lifters are like $160? This morning FB recommended me a ZZP issues and customer service group that I joined and it wasn't great. They basically suck in all regards. Box up other parts and claim they are their own including bumped up prices in some instances. Their customer service sucks big time and I experienced that first hand. They have pretty terrible lifter instructions and refer to everything in screw turns. I messaged them saying I don't do **** in turns of a screw and asked for the recommended pre load. Their answer was just copying and pasting the screw turn instructions from the website. I messaged a buddy I trust who has done a bunch of 3800 stuff and he was like yeah I don't recommend them and have heard of lots of failures. He said they are likely just reboxed parts store lifters. I completely agree and think the price alone reflects that. I just started my return process with them today and am going to be purchasing the summit 7717 Morel drop ins. I bought most of this from @Summitracing as I have a lot of respect for Brian and his knowledge, and what he and team share on this message board plus others.
Bought some Delphi 50# injectors from Glenn's Auto Performance and other misc parts to go along with this like the Summit 11/32 HDR pushrods, etc. etc.
I'll still need to confirm push rod length - I bought the Summit 7.375 pushrods and am pretty sure those will be best considering the reduced length due to thinner gasket. Preload is supposed to be .060 but I've seen several people including the Tick account on here say they have run .040-.045 without issue. I'll double check with my pushrod checker but I'm fairly confident a 7.400 will be too much and a 7.350 not enough. If anyone has any thoughts on that though feel free to share.
Only major things left are of course to do the work, but then find a tuner. A local shop to me posted up about a "black Friday deal" on tuning. I messaged them and they shot me back $600 which seems INSANE considering I already have HPT and credits, which I told them about. With this mild cam this thing should be fairly easy to tune. They do have a dyno though so I'm guessing he figured in dyno time too rather than just a street tune. I'm hoping to find someone to tune this for around $200-250 however I do have enough experience to know that it the most important part of this whole deal so I'll do whatever it takes to be tuned correctly.
I'll update again if anything changes or as things continue to progress.
- Found a complete exhaust from Speed Engineering on FB marketplace for $775 with everything needed and brand new. The dude bought it thinking he could install on an Envoy and of course, it didn't fit. There are a few very minor scrapes on one header where they tried installing it and after realizing it would not fit, listed it all for sale. It's about a $950 exhaust after taxes etc. 1 7/8" headers, 3" ORY and then their 3" single exhaust.
- Texas Speed Stage 2 Low Lift cam. The 212/218 112 .550 unit. $125 brand new. I found it using a national craigslist search engine I use. I had to pay shipping too for $25 so I have $150 into it. Got it earlier this week and it is indeed brand new and arrived without any issue. It 's not the exact cam I want, but for $150 total, it's the cam I'll happily run. It is coated with some waxy **** that is clearly for rust protection. I've never actually bought a cam that was brand new. Talked to a buddy who has and he says it is normal. Can anyone clarify what exactly this stuff is and the best way to get it off? He said he ended up just brake cleaning the hell of out his and it did eventually all come off.
- BTR .560 springs/seals and BTR upgraded trunions already installed in rockers. Found on FB marketplace, brand new still in boxes. I paid $140 for all of it. I think it's about $300 worth of stuff new. Just the rockers w/ trunions themselves are like $200.
Then on Black Friday I just grabbed all the other parts to go with it. Per summit's recommendation on another post I ended up doing Cometic .040 gaskets to bump the compression a few tenths and improve quench. New trays and then the biggest thing is I had ordered lifters from ZZP performance. The claim a modified comp 875 lifter with improved travel blah blah. They are regularly only $130 and I believe on sale for like $115. That price just felt really low considering even basic *** delphi lifters are like $160? This morning FB recommended me a ZZP issues and customer service group that I joined and it wasn't great. They basically suck in all regards. Box up other parts and claim they are their own including bumped up prices in some instances. Their customer service sucks big time and I experienced that first hand. They have pretty terrible lifter instructions and refer to everything in screw turns. I messaged them saying I don't do **** in turns of a screw and asked for the recommended pre load. Their answer was just copying and pasting the screw turn instructions from the website. I messaged a buddy I trust who has done a bunch of 3800 stuff and he was like yeah I don't recommend them and have heard of lots of failures. He said they are likely just reboxed parts store lifters. I completely agree and think the price alone reflects that. I just started my return process with them today and am going to be purchasing the summit 7717 Morel drop ins. I bought most of this from @Summitracing as I have a lot of respect for Brian and his knowledge, and what he and team share on this message board plus others.
Bought some Delphi 50# injectors from Glenn's Auto Performance and other misc parts to go along with this like the Summit 11/32 HDR pushrods, etc. etc.
I'll still need to confirm push rod length - I bought the Summit 7.375 pushrods and am pretty sure those will be best considering the reduced length due to thinner gasket. Preload is supposed to be .060 but I've seen several people including the Tick account on here say they have run .040-.045 without issue. I'll double check with my pushrod checker but I'm fairly confident a 7.400 will be too much and a 7.350 not enough. If anyone has any thoughts on that though feel free to share.
Only major things left are of course to do the work, but then find a tuner. A local shop to me posted up about a "black Friday deal" on tuning. I messaged them and they shot me back $600 which seems INSANE considering I already have HPT and credits, which I told them about. With this mild cam this thing should be fairly easy to tune. They do have a dyno though so I'm guessing he figured in dyno time too rather than just a street tune. I'm hoping to find someone to tune this for around $200-250 however I do have enough experience to know that it the most important part of this whole deal so I'll do whatever it takes to be tuned correctly.
I'll update again if anything changes or as things continue to progress.
Last edited by blackdak318; 11-26-2023 at 03:02 PM.
11-26-2023, 02:47 PM
#38
Oh and I did seriously contemplate doing a TBSS intake but couldn't justify the costs or potential headaches that go along with it. Plus from what I've seen it doesn't make any more tq down low where I want it; which is mostly what I'm concerned with. So just leaving the stock gen 3 truck intake. I really don't want to mess with putting a larger fuel pump in this deal either. So honestly if it makes a bit less power which allows me to just keep the stock pump, I'm 100% fine with that. What is the factory pump and what are the limits of it btw? I'm not familiar at all. It is an 07 classic 2500 HD LQ4, I don't believe they offered any of these in flex fuel but regardless, it's not flex fuel.
11-28-2023, 07:46 AM
#39
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@blackdak318,
Thank you for your patronage of the SUM-HT217-16 Morel 7717 drop-in lifters along with the other parts you've purchased from us.
Thank you for your patronage of the SUM-HT217-16 Morel 7717 drop-in lifters along with the other parts you've purchased from us.
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blackdak318 (11-28-2023)
12-07-2023, 05:57 PM
#40
I finished the LQ4 build about 2 months ago now. here's what I ended up doing...
stock crank, molnar forged rods, DSS forged pistons 3rd over, ported and softened 799 Heads, Summit 8720R1 Cam (218/227 112+2), BTR platinum 660 valve springs, tbss intake, 90mm 6.2 throttle body, 60lb injectors. lots of stuff (rods, pistons, crank, valve springs, rockers, timing gears, oil pump) was coated with micro slick to help with windage and heat. pistons and head where coated as well with piston cost for heat reduction.
final compression is around 10.6:1, currently running 93 open loop VE because I didn't feel like finishing the last bit of tuning until I got my headers on. I also have no clue about hp numbers but I saw a guy with an extremely similar build recently just less CR put down about 440wtq and 430whp. the thing will end up with a turbo at some point.
Still got a but of tuning to do just to button things up but it drives wonderfully. At first it would hit real hard right at 3500rpm but after some tuning it seems to hit just as hard at 3000rpm and still has tons of torque around 2500rpm. below that there has been a slight torque loss that's almost unoticeable. I think the headers I got will really help to spice things up down low.
stock crank, molnar forged rods, DSS forged pistons 3rd over, ported and softened 799 Heads, Summit 8720R1 Cam (218/227 112+2), BTR platinum 660 valve springs, tbss intake, 90mm 6.2 throttle body, 60lb injectors. lots of stuff (rods, pistons, crank, valve springs, rockers, timing gears, oil pump) was coated with micro slick to help with windage and heat. pistons and head where coated as well with piston cost for heat reduction.
final compression is around 10.6:1, currently running 93 open loop VE because I didn't feel like finishing the last bit of tuning until I got my headers on. I also have no clue about hp numbers but I saw a guy with an extremely similar build recently just less CR put down about 440wtq and 430whp. the thing will end up with a turbo at some point.
Still got a but of tuning to do just to button things up but it drives wonderfully. At first it would hit real hard right at 3500rpm but after some tuning it seems to hit just as hard at 3000rpm and still has tons of torque around 2500rpm. below that there has been a slight torque loss that's almost unoticeable. I think the headers I got will really help to spice things up down low.