Platinum WS6

iTrader: (6)

Wow, have you ever worked on a rotary, excuse me I mean changed rotarys out every 20k miles? A friend of mine went through 3, thats right 3, built rotarys with the best internals within about 30k miles. Tuned was right on the money, the APEX seals kept blowing out and blowing the motor. He finally gave up on it and it just sits there in his yard rusting. It was an 87' Turbo car. It was kinda quick for a little while, then it would blow. Back, to back, to back.........

The PAT WS6

iTrader: (14)

the bottom end it self cant handle more than 700rwhp i would assume

silicone boy

Amazing how this ancient thread resurfaces just after I discover ls1tech.com, and just days after I finally decide to drop a 427 LS into my FD3S. I've given up on the rotary. It's unreliable and I would almost get double the gas mileage with an LSX. To get it to make as much power as a V8, you have to go single turbo and otherwise make it a very uncivilized motor. Believe it or not, the conversion actually weighs less! It even weighs less than a modern Civic. It's a perfect combination of a great drivetrain with one of the best chassis ever produced in a production car. The sad part is I'm bastardizing a car that has less than 13,000 copies in the United States, most of which are sitting in salvage yards as a result of having blown up.

Since I come from the hybrid world (Hybrid Datsun Z cars), I'll pose a question I asked the Hybrid Z folks. If you put American Iron (or aluminum) into a Datsun Z or an RX7, are you still a ricer? I find the Honda folks hate us and the American car crowd hate us too.

kenkaru

I think you'll find that most true auto enthusiasts will define a "ricer" as someone who takes the hubcaps off to show off the steel wheels and puts on a spoiler in excess of 5 inches. Stickers, LED squirters, combat body kits, and fart cans define a ricer, and not the make of the vehicle. An import can be done tastefully, just as an FBod can be riced out.

Who really gives a crap anyway since you'll have such a weight and handling advantage on that platform you can always just say talk is cheap SHOW ME what a piece of crap my hybrid car is compared to (a ricemobile or FBod).

mr2mitch

I've been an import driver since I was 17 I'm now 23. I currently drive a toyota MR2 turbo. My best time in the 1/8th (it's all we have) is 8.6@ 85mph with a 1.9 60ft on street tires. I'm pretty much stock just Intake, Exhaust, Boost controller set to 17psi, and upgraded intercooler.

Imports especially those like mine which is equipped with a very strong and capable motor can make big power and run very good times but it's been my experience after owning and racing a 93 civic EG6 Hatch with a B16A fully built and turboed with a very modest kit (greddy 18G), as well as a Talon TSI AWD turbo, and my current MR2 that FWD SUX!!!!!!!!

I'm in the market soon for a 98-2000 T/A WS6 just because I'm tired of dealing with the headaches associated with turbo cars. I want to go all motor for a little bit. After going RWD I will never never never go FWD ever again.

I cut 1.9 60fts on Yoko ES100's my buddy with his all motor GSR integra cuts 2.0-2.1 60's on BFG DR's. Thats my only beef with Honda's. The B-series is a very capable motor I have several buddies that have 12 sec Hondas that could be 11 sec honda if they could catch traction.

When I need ET streets for traction at power levels in the mid 200's it's time for a diffrent drive train. My comments dont come from opinion that come from experience. I love imports but i also love the LS1 hahaha. When I finally have the money to get that elusive Supra then that will be the only car I ever own ever hahaha.

mr2mitch

The 13B is not an upgrade it is the stock wankel found in the FD and FC's. An upgrade would be to go with a 20B which is a 3 Rotor. A 4 Rotor which I'm not even sure if they make one would cost well over $30k considering a 20B cost $20k thats for the motor and install done buy Steve Kahn at Gotham Racing one of the premier RX7 builder and tuners in the world thats right the world. A 13B wankel only has 3 moving parts. You are right about the RX7 needing major maintence. It's not one of those cars that you can forget to change the oil or anything else for that matter.

Replacing the Apex seals on the rotor is just like putting forged internals in a combustions engine there are two major types the 3mm's and the hurleys. Just like porting the rotor housing is the same as adding cams to the combustion engine. Kept moderatly stock you can get decent realiable horsepower out of them. My buddy eddie had upgraded 3mm apex seals, street port, 850cc primary injectors and 1600cc secondaries, upgraded intake, exhaust, and intercooler as well as a full standalone tuned by steve kahn and he still went through 3 motors in 3 yrs When I was in the market for an RX7 he told me NO DONT DO IT lol so I bought the MR2 instead.

mitch

kenkaru

So what are you going to tell someone if they are in the market for an MR2?
NO DONT DO IT lol buy an LS1 instead!

mr2mitch

LOL, No the MR2 is plain and simply bullet proof. Iron block aluminum head. The stock internals have been proven to just right around 700whp before they start having issue.

Rear engine Rear wheel drive como se desa weight transfer. It's an amazing car and I would suggest it to anyone that was in the market for one. I love the mr2 and think it's an amazing platform weather you drag race or Auto Cross.

The only reason I'm in the market for a T/A is because I want somthing more comfortable (A/C mostly lol) and has a back seat. I have a 2yr old son and it's hard for my wife and I to go places with him in my car hahahaha so.

Plus my moms boyfriend has worked at several diffrent performance shops and machine shops his whole life and knows more about small/big blocks and LSx's then I could ever know or learn about import engines and I feel I know alot lol which is just an ace in the pocket for me so.

I feel bad being an import driver and downing imports because I do truly love them but in all honesty there are only a few Imports that I would suggest.

MKIV Supra
MKII MR2
Nissan 240SX
EVO IV/IX


There are other very capable platforms but they have issues that I just wouldnt put on other people.

DSM's are great platforms if you want your first upgrade to be a parts car. Honda's are great platforms if your on a budget but traction will own you for life in comparison to RWD. If I had more time I could come up with others.

For those that say honda's came be made fast for cheap not so much lol.

We'll assume that we are working with a 93 EG6 hatch (it's my favourite)

Now we arent going to keep that slow *** SOHC D16 so lets swap that for a B16 thats $1500-2500 right there assuming you do the swap your self. Well now we have that we need to make it fast. Since we are going to be trying to make 500whp we have to build the engine thats about $4000 (Sleeves, Pistons, Rods, new bearins etc) now we have to buy a turbo kit. Like I said we want to hit 500whp so we cant go with a slouch like a T3/T4 46trim. We're going to need something with a bit more punch I suggest the percision SC61 it's cheap and is almost like owning a GT35R lol. that being said Thats going to be about $3500 (Manifold, Turbo, Piping, Intercooler, BOV, Couplings, Downpipe etc) Now we have that we need to tune it. I prefer NepTUNE but we'll go with Hondata. since we went with a B16 and not a B18C1 GSR we have to get a P72 ECU so we can swap out the EProm. That is going to be about $200 since Honda inflations is all over the net. Now we have to drop the $400 to have hondata swap the chip and install the program etc. Now thats done we need to tune it Tony Pallo is one of my favourites and one of the best in this area LA,TX thats going to be about $100 an hour and it take about 4hrs to get a good tune thats $400 right there. I didnt go through ignition thats going to be another $300 or so. We cant' run 500whp on stock honda axles at least not on anything other then street tires so thats $1k for gator 500hp axles. Dont forget fuel I'd say thats going to be about another $1k I'm sure I'm leaving somthings out. Let add this up


Comes to $13,300 thats with out the price of the car. Thats not cheap to me Honestly I think it would actually come to more like $15k after it was all said and done. On slicks that will get you mid 11's depending on the track. Very impressive for a 4 banger IMO.

Now thats just a honda. On an MR2,Supra, 240 it's a little cheaper because we are already turbo or have the option to swap a stock turbo motor into a chassis for very little (240)

I have $2k invested in my car and I'm sitting at an 8.6 on street tires. Give me some ET streets and I'd be running 8.0's easy maybe even 7.9's depending on the DA and Humidity. Give me $5k more and I'd be Mid to low 7's maybe even 6's who knows. So it can be very cheap to run good times in an Import given the right platform.

My question is what would it cost to get 500whp out of an LS1 or mid to low 11's would be a good question to. Because HP doesnt really matter to me it's E.T.s if I can get down the 1320 in 11 sec with 350whp then thats fine with me.

kenkaru

I think this would get you there...

Serious Cam and VSprings = 700
Headers = 400
NO2 = 600
Y and Catback = 650
Tune = 500
500RWHP Total 2850
(If you're gonna get an LS1, you can start saying REAR whp)

zigroid

iTrader: (22)

12 bolt rear = $2500
sub frame connectors, control arms, and various other suspension parts to plant 500rwhp to the ground = $500-1000
rebuild transmission = $1000
sticky tires = $350

then the price shoots up to $7700.

he listed everything needed to make AND handle 500 rwhp honestly, not just make 500 rwhp and be a dyno queen.


mr2mitch, my good friend has an mr2. he had a wrecked turbo car and swapped the engine/transmission into an NA car. he has a manual boost controller set at 15 or 16 psi, a turbo back exhaust (basically a straight pipe), and an air intake. along with a few suspension and brake mods he also bought some kind of computer upgrade, im not sure what, but he runs low 13s at 103 on street tires. claims it makes about 220-230 whp. pretty fast for what it is. just a cheap car built in a driveway.
heres some pictures of it:

the bumper looked like that when he got it too lol

theres a few imports I wouldnt mind having either but I wouldnt keep the stock engine. LS1 swaps

kenkaru

You won't need any of that unless you press the gas pedal.

caseypayne69

I can't help it if your friend didnt know what the hell he was doin. Plenty of motors last just fine. One thing was he using synthetic oil? If so you're not supposed too. The oil needs to burn, and synthetic oils rub into the apex seals, not buring off and destroy the seals. It's not the most environmentally friendly motor, but like any ls1 on this site, they aint either, at least the high hp ones.

caseypayne69

Thx for clearing that up, I forgot about the 20b.

svsgt1

Ok, so Rotaries are by far the coolest engine. Dr. Wankle is a geneous and the power made from such a small engine is very impressive. But the engine also sucks. Because it just simply is unreliable when pushed. So it is awesome and sucks all at the same time. Now if they made a reliable, aluminum rotary then it woudln't be so bad. But LS1's are great as they can make awesome power with little mods, but it also sucks if you look at it from a technology point of view. Pushrods, 16 valves, but there are trade offs such as weight, center of gravity, and packaging. Either way there is no perfect engine.

First off 500hp Hondas do not exist (by that I mean they are very rare). It is possible but you have to push the hell out of the engine. Do the same work (race gas, turbo, interals, etc ect) on an LS1 and you will get 1000+hp. And to stop all the mis-information Honda Civics are not that light. Depending on year they are from 2785-2875 pounds. RX7's are in the low 2800 pounds. Now that is light compared to the LS1 cars, 3200 for a vette and 3440 for a Camaro (roughly). I hate when people say their Civic weighs 2500 pounds. They don't. Hell, even a Mini weighs just under 2700 pounds.

If you like RX7's then it is cool to put an LS1 in it. Rare car to begin with plus it is cool to put a V8 in it as nobody has it. I saw a Ford Focus with a V8 in it and it was cool because it is rare but it was still a Focus. But if you like Focus's then it is cool.

But the point is that putting powerful engines in other cars is what it is all about and what has been done for the last 50 years. All have their disadvantages and advantages. There is no winner, just what you like. I just don't see why people only like Imports or Domestics. Hell I got them all and I like them all, but I don't like all Imports or all domestics. You want something fast then just build it, don't buy it. Thats the way to do it.

silicone boy

Well said on all counts. While the wankel is a cool concept, it sucks. How can such a small engine get such terrible fuel economy and be so unreliable under boost? I get 13 mpg in my RX7. You are also correct on Honduh weight. The FD3S weighs less than a modern Honduh Civic, even with an aluminum V8. I like what you said about hybrids. The auto industry just does not make cars that I like, so I have to make my own. They keep on adding more and more weight to them, and the C6, although a great car, is absolutely massive. The FD3S, however, is so stripped down that it doesn't even have a cupholder! It's drop dead gorgeous and the best argument to do a swap is that I have one, as well as a Camaro SS drivetrain. The combination would be awesome and chicks wouldn't question my ***** size for owning one . I have two other foreign V8 hybrids in my garage. I have a Datsun Z with a TT 383 SBC and the ultimate hybrid under construction, a Shelby Cobra kit car. Carroll Shelby had the right idea.

silicone boy

Is this the most hijacked thread in the history of the internet or what?

kenkaru

Hijacked, resurrected, and then hijacked again!

Someone sent me a comment from a post I made on page one in 2004!
I was like "what the heck is he talking about?" eventually I found it.

I agree on the rotary being an engineering wet dream but a mess in application.

caseypayne69

I wouldn't drop an ls1 in it. you're gonna lose ur handling. 50/50 weight distribution. It's just not worth it.

kenkaru

I thought the Al blocked LS1 was lighter than a fully set up turbo rotary?

silicone boy

Why do people keep on saying this when Hinson Supercars has documented an actual weight loss from the swap, and the weight distribution front to rear is the same? Plus, the way the rotary sits, it's driveshaft is much higher in the car as opposed to a V8.

Does the car handle poorly just because it has a V8 that weighs the same, sits lower and behind the crossmember? Please explain the physics to me because I'm curious.

At the Datsun Z forums, we hear this all the time. We've been kicking the purist butts since the 1970's. A SBC weighs only 60 pounds more than the inline 6 and sits totally behind the K member, which the 6 absolutely did not. The swap gave the car better handling for these reasons but I'm not sure why the RX7 would suffer. To be fair, V8 Datsun Z's don't necessarily make for better racecars because they put out too much power for such a light car. If too much horsepower is the case, then we should all stop modifying our cars. It's BAAAAD for them.