never said which one is best. again i'll restate my purpose. to stop someone from telling everyone that a reverse split cam is in order because we are so intake restricted. i did just that. he now states it's all in the combo. and now he's telling everyone not to buy off the shelf cams and get custom grind cams. some people just don't have the time to figure it all out. spend 3 hours talking to a guy and deciding what custom grind he'll need. most are looking for something that works well that's been out there and knows works.

most folks can't seem to look past the .050 for what reason? cam manufacturers won't post it on the cam cards now do they? what are on cam cards? .004 or .006 and .050 durations. for how many decades has it been that way? hasn't changed in the 13 years i've been in this business. and it's been that way for many years before. remember the years when you only had four choices for a cam? 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and race cam?

then there are people like you and TR and VHP and Futral, that spend all their time and energy trying to figure all this out. you find a cam profile that works very well in a particular application. then you shelve it and sell it. why do that? why not sell custom grinds per application only? because after 100 people call with the same combination of parts, you start grinding the same cam over and over.

are you seeing my take on the situation yet? i'm talking about the regular guy wanting a little more without spending $1000 on top of a cam swap to get it to work.

the only thing i keep seeing in defense of a reverse split is a dyno that shows a gain after 5500 rpms, and all these RACE cars breaking the 9 second barrier with it. and back on the dyno chart. i'll have to assume it was with a LS6 intake because it was stated this was 2 years ago before intakes were available. still don't see the restriction until you spin the motor PAST the intakes designed range. if reverse splits are such a great benefit, then why didn't GM put one in the LS motors to begin with? i'm sure they spent 10s of thousands of dollars more than anyone here designing the motor and doing R&D until they found the correct cam design to fit many bills. performance and emissions. maybe the reverse split doesn't meet the emission part of it and supply the desired power they were looking for.

maybe i've missed the dyno sheets showing a better gain under 5500 rpms. but i don't think so. there is another dyno in this thread where a guy put 3 cams (actually more and he said a reverse split sucks for him) in his car. and his dyno showed it. i think his showed better results with a single pattern cam. then there is the 2nd dyno sheet. shows a nice gain over a single pattern cam after 5500 rpms. he loves it. says has the same driveability and everything. worked for him. you want me to change my stance on what i've stated twice already, then start proving it.

are you seeing my take on the situation yet? i'm talking about the regular guy wanting a little more without spending $1000 on top of a cam swap to get it to work. but then again if the results are the same as the guy that went from a single pattern to a reverse split and saw no noticeable difference, then it worked out. but we don't know what happened under 3000 rpms for any dyno posted up here showing both sides of the reverse split.

is there a way the person can post all mods for that situation where it worked well? if he has a 3500 stall, then of course it worked well. because if there was a loss under 3000 in a substantial matter, the converter will cover it up. but a guy with a stock converter might find that problem.

marc_w went from a 220/220? to the VHP 047 cam 210/218. he says it worked beautifully for him. brought the low end back to life for him.

 

dude, i said allll the wya back in the beginning of this thread about matching the cam to the combo so quit using my intake restriction talk as a way to throw the blame onto me.

the intake is a restriction. even the ls6. look at the restriction chart. listen to what j-rods saying about long runners.

and quit attacking me when someone questions you.

All, they are saying is. If you match the cam to the setup. Possibly. It might have a reverse feature.

The reverse feature is because your matching it to the flow characteristics.

Now how do you jump to reverse splits are race cams? Maybe the ones in your test. You didn't spec them to the combo. You just did an opposite of an exhaust bias'd grind.

 

VE's are overlooked because they are over most people's heads. they want a cam that is known to work. people don't want to be the guinea pig with their personal vehicle. people don't want to call up a place and get a custom grind for their application and wonder if it was the best.

look around. how many people have custom ground cams for their vehicle? not many as compared to all the people that went with the TR230 cams when they came out and they produced good results with it. gambling is for vegas. people look for results and go with it. why? the only place people gamble is in casinos. it's just human nature.

 

I wasnt ******* anyones anything. Just trying to point out nothing new is being done here, and auto cars with flashing converters shouldnt be used to tout a cams lowend torque output.

You said car a, b and c was fast. I pointed out that there is much much faster

 

i guess you didn't notice that restiction chart was on a fully ported 224cc head now did you? find me a chart showing a LS1 intake on a LS1 head. or a LS6 intake on a LS6 head. stock unported. then report the retriction. don't be lazy on this one.

you may have said that in the beginning of THIS thread. but not in the comp 216/220 thread now did you? here's your very first post in this thread. way to start off.

quotes from the comp 216/220 thread.

even have roger vinci come in and explain their cam theory and this was your response. first question is a good one. second one still saying the intake is restricted.

 

well i guess mid 9's race and 11's in street capacity cars just aren't fast anymore. my mistake. you asked if they had any fast cars didn't you?

 

I haven't jumped on the band wagon and hailed standard splits. I guess I out to since everyone else here is doing it.

Actually, I enjoy questioning the idea. Especially when information is brought up to go against the way it works.

 

because of the information put forth in front of me. and even you agreed with me on that one. do i need to quote you from THIS thread of you agreeing with me on that?

i didn't spec them to the combo? you keep wanting the reverse split to be the end all cam. so i took a cam and reversed it. it did the exact same thing it did in patrick g's actual dyno now didn't it. then you came back with well it might need to go down on the exhaust duration instead of reversing the profile. i did that and it did even worse.

overall you seem to have a good head on your shoulder for an assumed 16 year old stated in your profile. but, you need to stop coming in here and ******* me by coming back with great post J-ROD etc. and then restate what they just said. you sound just like the kid that stands behind a bully. YEAH WHAT HE SAID!!!.

 

i'm all for debates as you can very well see. and won't think bad of anyone that has a different opinion than me. standard splits work. and i've seen where in one out of two dynos that a reverse split worked over a single pattern cam. that's how progress is made.

tell you what. let's spec out the wife's car. J-ROD and other cam people tell me what cam i should go with.

list of parts
VHP airlid and polyfoam filter
VHP MAF ends
VHP 1.89 accelerated lift rockers
VHP dual springs
Bassani 1 3/4 optimum length headers w/hi flow 2 1/2" cats and y-pipe
Borla catback with small open plate
stock converter
3.23 gears
VHP heads 2.02/1.60 Ferrea valves flow chart here
overall compression will be 10.5:1
LS1 intake
driven everyday
don't want alot of lope to it. just enough to know there is a cam in it.

ready, set, GO!!!!

 

This is a graph of 224/220, .581/.581 116+0 XE-R, A4, Stage 2 LS6, LT's etc...
point is definitly not "Race" application, relatively "small" by todays cam standards, Over 350 lbs trq at 3000 rpm till 6500.

 

it makes some nice numbers that's for sure. what are you comparing this to? looks like two dynos of the same cam. but 3 runs later they locked the converter and lost power. nice mph reference chart instead of rpm. without know what gears this car has, i can't begin to see where the rpms are per mph.

how did you figure out 3000 - 6500 rpms? my cars with 3.23 gears start dynoing at 72 mph which is right about 3200 rpms. so, assuming that, it's not making over 350 lbs/ft of torque at 3000 rpms.

now that you've jumped in here, let me clarify my statement about reverse splits cams. what i said was they are making more power above 5500 rpms compared to a single pattern cam in the same motor. you can look at the two dynos posted in her about it. one from gomer and one from patrick g. both show the reverse split cam taking over from about 5500 and up. for a guy racing, that's great. but for a guy driving around town in his street car, or a guy in his truck pulling a trailer, not ever going to see that. to top it off no dyno has shown anything below 3000 rpms.

in this respect gomer says the reverse split sucked and patrick g says it did good. so using two people's opinion on the driveability part of it, you hit a 50% chance that's it'll work well under 3000 rpms for you. but a 100% chance it'll do well after 5500 rpms.

 

here. i'll put the only two dynos comparing reverse split cams to other cams in the same motors. in the first dyno, the reverse split did better after 5500 rpms with minimal loss from 3000-5500 rpms. driveability no change. the second dyno shows the reverse split makes more power after 5500 rpms with no loss from 3000-5500 rpms. but a single pattern kicked both their butts. driveability sucked with the reverse split. it was after reading through all this information i changed my stance from not needed at all to works well in race apllications. maybe i should change that to works well in applications where you are wanting to turn past 6000 rpms.

 

VE and any other camshaft parameter(s) may be overlooked by the end user, but the camshaft designer does not overlook anything. That's what a "wise" consumer will do. Pay for the experience and knowledge of an expert(s) and not follow the pack and decide on some "Forum Favorite" profile.
I think this has more to do with marketing and JIT delivery. A lot of enthusiasts are impulse buyers and want immediate gratification when they have a "want". (Probably driven because of the instaneous responses from the internet.) That's the only reasoning behind why a "shelf cam" will sell quicker than a TRUE custom profile. Delivery time! There's no difference in price.

I do a lot of C-H-I "packages" that are tailored to each customer's particular combination and all I use is custom designed camshaft profiles. These C-H-I packages work, period! Customers are always pleased with their results and none have ever been disappointed. Sorry if this blows your sales of custom vs shelf cam theory but it is accurate from my standpoint.
The only gamble for a consumer is whether or not the shelf design camshaft (or any other forum favorite) is the perfect match for their particular combination. As you stated, since no one can generalize on every person's combination or results, so how can one "shelf cam" design be a perfect match for so many vehicles, with so many variables. This is where the "designed" custom camshaft shines. It is engineered to work with that set up and not with a "close enough" philosophy.

Sorry, but to me, you've missed the benefits for a "wise" consumer to be purchasing a properly designed custom cam profile vs the purchase of a "semi-custom" (or better known as a shelf cam). Especially when the two profiles actually cost the same. The consumer will always get what they paid for from an engineered camshaft and sometimes a bit more from a "value added" standpoint...

As for the reverse split stuff... it all depends on the application. PERIOD!

Ed

 

nope doesn't blow my theory at all. you just reaffirmed it. most don't understand all this talk about VEs and other cam talk. they want something that works. and have seen it work. and i'm glad your customers are happy with the custom cam you put in for them. shows you are doing a great service for them. mainly the people that buy shelf cams is because they are doing the install themselves and are impulse buyers just as you've said. time is the other factor. but, if they are ordering a shelf cam, it may take an extra day to get a custom ground cam.

and with all this custom cam to perfectly match the situation. the customer looks at this and goes hmmm i get a cam for my setup now that's perfect. now i go and get a different intake manifold. now my cam is no longer perfect for my application. with this thought in mind is why they get a general shelf cam. they know it'll work with any mods they add later. still may not be the perfect cam. but they don't have to go buying another cam everytime they change an external piece.

 

EDC - spec me a cam would you? i've put up my mods and want to see what the perfect cam is going to be.

list of parts
VHP airlid and polyfoam filter
VHP MAF ends
VHP 1.89 accelerated lift rockers
VHP dual springs
Bassani 1 3/4 optimum length headers w/hi flow 2 1/2" cats and y-pipe
Borla catback with small open plate
stock converter
3.23 gears
VHP heads 2.02/1.60 Ferrea valves flow chart here
overall compression will be 10.5:1
LS1 intake
driven everyday
don't want alot of lope to it. just enough to know there is a cam in it.

 

Ed doesn't give away camshafts...

If you want one, send him a check and he'll send you a cam that is designed for your combo. Money talks, B.S. walks...

 

i asked you to spec me one as well.

 

mrr23,

I don't understand. If you are familair and agree with everything Ed is stating, then how come you support Vinci's off the shelf cams? I have nothing against what they do, but wouldn't it be more accurate to support Vinci's custom made camshafts? I see you all the time replying to posts stating "try the 047 cam, try the 055 cam". Wouldn't it be more fair if you were replying "send your specs to Joe, he can spec you an awesome camshaft to fit your needs". Am i wrong?

Just the way I see it, and no flame intended.

 

i can agree with what is the perfect way to do it and still say go try this cam. because the VHP, Comp, Crane shelf cams are custom oriented as well. let's look at it like this. and, yes i can say call joe or roger to get the right cam for you. what i do is give them something to look at. they look around. then they call VHP to confirm which is right for them. it's like when you walk through the food court at the mall. people get you to try a sample of the food. it might not what you wanted. but it brings you to them and you may order something different.

customer #1
car
SLP airlid
LS1 intake
stock heads
bassani headers w/cats
borla catback

customer #2
car
Whisper airlid
LS1 intake
stock heads
flowtech headers w/cats
magnaflow catback

customer #3
car
MTI airlid
LS1 intake
stock heads
Hooker headers w/cats
SLP dual dual catback

all have the same mods. just made by someone different. just how much different can the cams be between the cars?

 

just like here. i told him the 047 might be a bit much for the wife. but look around.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/227832-best-cam-my-wifes-2003-zo6.html

and here. was asking about the cam and rockers. pointed out the benefits they did on my car. told him to call roger about it. he did and bought.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/226448-z06-cam-overlap.html

and this one. guy wanted a set of heads to go with his 055 cam. needed heads with stock valves sizes to fit his 5.3 motor. showed pics of the 4.8L heads VHP ported for me. told him to call them up.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/223049-heads-5-3-silverado.html

i do what i do best. drive business to them. it's up to the customer to make the final decision.