C4VetteLS1

Hey there Tony, I met you at the SEMA show the first day. I was the shop manager that runs the dyno down here in bakersfield and is friends with Dennis P etc. I appreciate your time at the show, and the TEA AFR ported 422" I was telling you abouts results are posted now here, and we were more than impressed with its results...its going to be a solid mid 10 sec daily driver before the spray.

Back to the point, I think i could be one that says I doubted the potential of the AFR's in the small 205cc setup. Ive didnt think they were going to be able to compete with the Absolute Speed or TEA heads available.

Ive had alot of results this week with your product. Do I think they are great? Yes. Do I think they are better than TEA 1.5's or Absolute stg 2's? No. But I do think the casting and all the improvements in this head are AWESOME. Tons of potential in full race port setups (your 225 and examples like TEA 238cc AFR's..)

BUT Your statement of "If Brand "X" (pick one) heads are so great, why haven't more stock displacement shortblocks put down RWHP numbers in the high 400's as readily as we have seen some recent AFR 205 combinations achieve...." is very easily answerable in my opinion of someone that has built a lot of ls1 cars.

The guys that can afford AFR's can often afford to do all the very expensive mods that add very small amounts of horsepower but add up to alot of money

The only bad results im seeing is that the only cars making big power are the test cars you guys built, the shadetree build it themselves ls1 crowd just arent making the #'s yet, and until they do, its hard to come through and get a good following

This is easily shown by two Z06's ive seen this week, both of which are friends and friends of mine.

The first is willing to do whatever it takes to make the power (490+ rwhp), this required ($500-700 shaft rockers, $500 elec water pump, $500-700 for aftermarket catback worth 5 hp!, $1250 Fast 90 and TB, forged shortblock, $2000+ LG Pro longtubes, $$$ countless hours of professional tuning with $9 a tank Torco race fuel additive, upgrading intake valves on your 205's if i remember correctly (could be wrong here), upgrading your premium patriot gold springs to comp 921's, comp-r lifters $500, and a cam so big that you have to flycut the pistons)

The 2nd is the majority of the car guys building cars: they drive it everyday and cant have something that barely idles and everything they install is on a budget. They are on a ls6 intake, all the bolt ons, reasonably big camshaft in the 224-230 range, and a stock bottom end with normal $500-750 headers etc.. and the most of the guys i see with AFR's now spent so much getting the heads that the rest of the combo is mild in comparison. Your combo makes the power because the tons of money and time thrown at it, and that takes nothing away from it, but the normal 90% of the ls1 crowd is going to end up with 375-450 rwhp with the AFR 205's.

That 2nd person is the same one that you see hundreds of times posting thier results of 375-450 rwhp on thier cars every week. Its not that the heads dont perform as well. Its they dont have the horribly expensive combo's to make that kinda power on stock cubes and those heads.

And if your looking for a comparison between home built cars and high dollar setups.
I would put our 225's right out of the box against any head brought to the table regardless of how "big" it was or how many claimed CFM it was suppose to flow

Lets put that to the test if you will:

You guys have several AFR cars signed up for the dragrace next month.
I'll be at Famoso on Dec 4th If you wanna put your 225's on the table. No better place than the dragstrip....ill bet you the shift **** off your z06 vs my vette or the heads on my car vs the heads on your car, that you can make the horsepower on my TEA heads im bringing to the table, this is a friendly challenge. Ill be there with my C4 with TEA Stg 2's and ill put down against ANY car you guys can bring. ANYTHING with AFR's on it. You cant miss mine, its the one thatll be kicked off for no parachute and us complaining that "its just a pump gas street car we drove here"

Unless the car breaks, Our TEA LS1 headed car will be the fastest ls1 at this event period. And I believe the TEA 238cc AFR headed C5 we bring will be the 2nd. This is a completely friendly challenge and with no bad talk intended in any respect. Just be careful what huge claims you guys make, i know you guys have great pride in your product, but saying your heads are the endall/beall untouchable product is just getting a little carried away.

(And if you guys would rather do it on the street, you know im game as are you!)

H82BBad

ahh but what about the TEA 238 cc AFR casting

H82BBad

Not as durable? unsafe??? scare tactics. How the hell is an ls6 head unsafe? How many have flown off cars and killed people? How long has the AFR head been around? how do we know how durable it is?
Man where did all these newbies come from with no post counts?
1. TEA Will port whatever you want, if it takes 10 hours to port them both the cost will be the same.The only money difference is in the casting cost. So to say he made more money porting the ls6 is BS. You don't think he would have made money selling the the afr cores also? above and beyond the portwork?
2 TEA is and AFR dealer last I knew..
3. you don't see many high dyno number Stage 2.5 ls6s heads because there are not that many of them.
4 I would still think the TEA ported AFR castings would make the most power.
The thicker decks of the AFR castings should make them better in power adder cars over the 800 hp mark. Although we have seen 6.0l heads hold 1500+ hp already. And this point has nopt been proven yet. AFAIK

Tony Mamo @ AFR

iTrader: (13)

We do take great pride in our product and sometimes it gets frustrating reading posts that make false claims or are simply way off base. It's tough reading posts about a new AFR product few people have even seen, never mind dyno tested, yet they are confident such and such's heads will make more power etc., etc. AFR brings a quality product to the market that provides impressive power gains, superior casting quality, and an affordable price when you consider the quality of workmanship and R&D to deliver the finished product and results these heads are capable of. Competition is the nature of our business and that will never change and that is a good thing....it drives all of us to try and build better products. The entire industry benefits from that, especially you guys, the end users. What frustrates me the most is the constant negativity new products tend to recieve instead of having a more "cautiously optimistic" approach. I never made a statement that we are the "endall" in cylinder heads....there are lots of companies out there that put out great products and TEA is certainly one of them....but what I will state is that given any fair test, I'll bet MY shifter **** that AFR will always find its way to the top of the heap. Look over the years at all the independant dyno tests always taking places in all the various magazines and different "forums" and you will usually see AFR's name close to the top or at the top.

As far as your "friendly challenge"....I would love to take part but will wait till I have a set of the 225's on my car so I can be on a more "level playing field" from an intake runner standpoint....(not to mention I would still be almost 60 cubic inches smaller with my stock shortblock). But count me in anyway as I would love to have the oppurtunity to perhaps surprise you again. I look forward to seeing what our "stealthy" AFR 205 street package does at Famoso and much like yourself am also hoping the parts breakage is at a minimum.

Competition is good....God Bless America....Horsepower rules....and sometimes I can't believe I get paid to do this.

We now bring you back to your regular programming (It's getting late....can you tell?)

Regards to all,
Tony Mamo

koolrayz

iTrader: (26)

If this thread gets any better they will have to put this post in the forced induction forum

HumpinSS

iTrader: (1)

Too many people want to just buy something strap it on and go. If I paid 2k+ for anything going on my car you best believe it will be in my best interest to take note to all the finer details. Anyone who doesnt isnt maximizing their combo or their investment. The people that who are grouped in the bolt on and go catergory, you arent cheating anyone but yourselves by not paying attention to ALL it takes to maximize and go fast.

gollum

iTrader: (1)

I can see that the comment I made about the thin factory castings might have hurt your business. But a profesional and ethical businessman would have never used name calling in response to my post. Show some respect for yourself and the company you work with.

MUSTANGEATER

iTrader: (10)

WOW, this thread has died and gone to hell lol.

FreighTrain T/A

iTrader: (1)

how much do they afr 205 go for these days???

C4VetteLS1

Tony: Well If thats accepting the challenge then I hope that means the shifter **** race is on! We are two of the same, cause racing is the real passion behind it all...dynoing is only so exciting. Lining them up is where its at. Having your shifter **** hanging from my rearview mirror would be one prize id love to tell the story of everytime someone asked what it was there for heheh..

marc_w

I definitely understand how you feel, Tony. I just wanted to make the comment that a lot of us out here 'are' taking that cautious approach - we're just kind of hanging out on the sidelines.

I'm looking forward to running your 205's in my truck this spring.

H82BBad

dude you should be happy with your award! He should not have pointed out that you are an idiot. The rest of us already knew it. I think he only did it to help clue you in. I am sure it was a statement made to help you and not hurt you.

besides its Veterens day (and he is a vet) so cut him some slack.

Beast96Z

iTrader: (21)

Obviouslly the reason the TEA version of the AFR's cost more is due to the fact that you have to buy the AFR casting first. You would run into the same thing if you wanted LS-6 heads. I personally went with the TEA Stage 2.5's using the AFR castings. With the TEA's, you can get an optional nitrous exaust port, which is very helpful to the nitrous/forced induction crowd. I think I have to side with C4vette on the note that all the big HP AFR cars have every mod imaginable. Most of you average joes working paycheck to paycheck aren't going to be able to replicate that set-up. I also believe that the cars that are making these numbers would make the same if not better HP with the TEA's. I have to place my bet with the TEA/AFR 2.5's or 3's over the 205's or 225's. The AFR's still seem to be good heads, but if you have more money, I think there are better options.

Rookie

Maybe I'm stating the obvious, but looking at the mods in your sig and comparing it to Tony's daily driver, is the drag strip really the "best" way to do this comparison?

critter

iTrader: (9)

Interesting comment. So you are saying that TEA's best effort on an AFR head can be improved by someone else?

Tony Mamo @ AFR

iTrader: (13)

Sooooo just to clarify....

You want to race your 2800 lb. 408 CID "14.50 tire" C4 race car against my stock suspension, stock displacement, pump gas 3300 lb. C5 street car?

That sounds like a ....fair comparison

(I know I must have missed the part where I set you out a couple of car lengths as well....)

I'm sure that A/B cylinder head swap you just conducted was certainly just as fair and tremendous amounts of time and effort was put forth to insure nothing else....

Unfortunately, I must decline the "shifter offer" but down the road when I build my 427, perhaps we can re-visit this and agree on terms slightly more condusive to actually getting a race off.

I'm outta here...

PS I'm gonna go call out my neighbor that just bought a new Honda Accord(twin overhead cam)...Its got a shiny new shifter handle!!

Redlinez

iTrader: (5)

Boy, this shows to me that that are two kinds of "performance" people on this board. Those who love to brag about flow and dyno #'s and those who want to see how much faster it gets down the track. Do you think higher cfm's always means a faster car? That's what test I want to see, how much faster is it! I know of g5x3 cars that don't run down the track worth a damn but dyno 410rwhp with stock heads.......

C4VetteLS1

[QUOTE=Tony Mamo @ AFR]Sooooo just to clarify....

You want to race your 2800 lb. 408 CID "14.50 tire" C4 race car against my stock suspension, stock displacement, pump gas 3300 lb. C5 street car?

That sounds like a ....fair comparison
[QUOTE]

Heheh...yes of course I do. Actually I was calling out ANYTHING you guys brought with AFR LS1 heads on it, not specifically yours. And im just a street racer at heart looking for race, its like pulling teeth in this town to find a race...

Hey mines a street car....power everything, stock suspension (only mods are adjustable shocks and removed sway bar period), Stock wheel wells, just the largest tire that fits under it stock, pump gas as well.

Oh well..ill see ya at the race, should be a good time for all.