Basic rebuild - quality but with a low price question
12-29-2004, 11:38 AM
#1
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Basic rebuild - quality but with a low price question I have decided to get rid of my piston noises. Car rattles between 2000-3000 RPM until fully warmed up. I do not have a warranty so saving money is important. But I want to do things right. I figured I would use Mahle cast pistons with the minimum oversize I can get away with. I figure dropping new pistons into existing bores is a waste of time (the GM warranty way). I assume I have to bore the block.
What do I need to replace while the engine is out? Please feel free to suggest.
- Pistons, rings, pins
- All gaskets (or are some reusable)
- New bearings
- Head bolts
- Crank Bolt
Can the heads go right back on? A local shop insists I have to skim the heads.
I saw a sponsor price on a new block at $599, is this a good way to go instead or does a new block need a lot of stuff done to it. Does it even come with bearing caps?
Thank in advance, just planning ahead before plowing in to something.
What do I need to replace while the engine is out? Please feel free to suggest.
- Pistons, rings, pins
- All gaskets (or are some reusable)
- New bearings
- Head bolts
- Crank Bolt
Can the heads go right back on? A local shop insists I have to skim the heads.
I saw a sponsor price on a new block at $599, is this a good way to go instead or does a new block need a lot of stuff done to it. Does it even come with bearing caps?
Thank in advance, just planning ahead before plowing in to something.
12-29-2004, 12:07 PM
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Get the bores honed and .10 over pistons and new rings. New crank and rod bearings. If you're using stock head bolts, then get new ones or ARP's. And new crank bolt. Heads can go back on since there was no "malfunction" only the piston slap. Look into upgrading the rod bolts while you're in there.
If you wanted to spend some extra money then go with the forged rods and pistons which are much stronger.
If you wanted to spend some extra money then go with the forged rods and pistons which are much stronger.
12-29-2004, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by technical
Get the bores honed and .10 over pistons and new rings. New crank and rod bearings. If you're using stock head bolts, then get new ones or ARP's. And new crank bolt. Heads can go back on since there was no "malfunction" only the piston slap. Look into upgrading the rod bolts while you're in there.
If you wanted to spend some extra money then go with the forged rods and pistons which are much stronger.
If you wanted to spend some extra money then go with the forged rods and pistons which are much stronger.
Also, I know where you can get a badass price on Mahle pistons and forged rods
last post on the first page has the contact info. https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228922
12-29-2004, 12:30 PM
#4
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Nowadays you can get a shortblock, balanced and blueprinted for cheap (relative term in LS1 motor build). Just send your shortblock to a reputed sponsor, you'll be better off IMO
12-29-2004, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Viper
Agreed. Shortblocks with forged pistons but using stock rods ( OK by me ) are in the $2000-$3000 dollar range now. You'll be hard pressed to do it yourself for 2K. 2 years ago I paid closer to 4K for the same.
12-29-2004, 05:41 PM
#7
Originally Posted by Another_User
Half of the reason is that machine shops are out of their friggin minds. It isn't my fault there are too many of them, and they have to pay for all of their equipment off of my rebuild alone. I went to get some machine work done to a 305 and they wanted like $1500 to clean the block, bore the cylinders, turn the crank, and install new cam bearings...along with a few minor things. I bought a complete long block for $700 (the core charge was like $150 or something really low like that), and I didn't have to get my hands dirty assembling it.
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12-29-2004, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Rob@ASMotorsports
Ever done this type of work before? Its not like making a sandwich. There is alot of time that go's into machine work that is done right!
12-29-2004, 08:15 PM
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So far some of the pricing I have been looking at comes to about $1300. This would be the forged Mahle pistons (with rings, and pins) not cast, main and rod bearings, all gaskets, doing all bores. I would be doing all the assembly work though. I must be missing something if you guys are spending upwards of $3000. You must be decking and align honing as well then? I wasn't planning on that unless something was bent or warped. My intent is to do a pure repair, but done properly. Assuming no other problems the crank would not be touched at all. Am I missing anything?
12-29-2004, 08:57 PM
#10
Originally Posted by Another_User
Yah yah...but, it should not cost more than buying a fully assembled engine. I know that they are not doing machine work on the grand scale that an engine remanufacturer does, but still. All they are doing is the machine work. Not giving you the parts, not replacing the bearings, not assembling it all. It should not cost 2 to 3 times as much as an entire rebuilt long block to do machine work to a short block. When it costs that much, then something has to give. And it won't be me. I'll just buy a new engine and watch them go out of business.
We have been in Business for over 30 years.
12-30-2004, 05:46 AM
#12
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Originally Posted by BJM
So far some of the pricing I have been looking at comes to about $1300. This would be the forged Mahle pistons (with rings, and pins) not cast, main and rod bearings, all gaskets, doing all bores. I would be doing all the assembly work though. I must be missing something if you guys are spending upwards of $3000. You must be decking and align honing as well then? I wasn't planning on that unless something was bent or warped. My intent is to do a pure repair, but done properly. Assuming no other problems the crank would not be touched at all. Am I missing anything?
LS1's are internally ballanced and blueprinted. I must be honed with TRQ plates, all rings and clearances checked and rechecked.
Cam and main bearing changed and specked with crank in place. Crank refurbished and polished then balanced.
To attempt to rebuild an LS1 takes a plathera of tools, and you'll still need a reputable machine shop with LS1 experience.
If you want to gain knowledge then make a deal with the machine shop to observe your first build up. Then only would you have enough knowledge to attempt it on your own.
This is IMO
12-30-2004, 02:30 PM
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Get all new gaskets, and what about ur crank and rods, ever think about replacin them, or just grindin them and jet wash them??? Makes a big difference when they get machined...
So you know a crank will run you $700 for a new one, and rods $300 Bucks for a new set..
If the Machine shop is willing to re-machine ur crand a rods do it..I had to pay $200 for it though, but i thought it was a wise decision...
Hope this helped...
So you know a crank will run you $700 for a new one, and rods $300 Bucks for a new set..
If the Machine shop is willing to re-machine ur crand a rods do it..I had to pay $200 for it though, but i thought it was a wise decision...
Hope this helped...
12-30-2004, 04:04 PM
#16
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I case you didn't believe me when I said sponsor built shortblocks are on the cheaper side look at this:>>>>>LINGENFELTER
Lingenfelter LS1, LS6 350 CID Short Block Special - In stock ready to ship
Component Preparation
All internal parts are de-burred, hand washed & inspected
Pistons, pins and connecting rods - pin fit to specification
Crankshafts - computer balanced to within .2 grams or less per inch.
Crankshaft - oil holes are chamfered
Crankshaft - bearing surfaces are micro polished
Cylinder Block Blueprinting
Align hone checked / machined
Precision honed on a Rottler HP6 with torque plates
Hand de-burred, bolt holes are checked and re-tapped
LPE Blueprint & Professional Assembly
Includes verification to LPE specifications of the following items
• Cylinder bore diameter • Lifter bore diameter
• Cylinder wall taper • Piston skirt taper
• Piston diameter • Piston to wall clearance
• Deck height of block • Piston ring end gap
• Bearing clearances • Rod side clearance
• Crankshaft end play • Bolt torque specifications
Parts included in assembly:
• GM LS1 aluminum block, - 3.900" bore
• Water jacket plugs, oil galley & cam bearings
• Mahle forged aluminum pistons - coated
• Mahle moly file fit rings - 1.5mm, 1.5mm, 3.0mm
• GM LS1 crankshaft
• GM LS1 connecting rods
• Speed Pro heavy duty rod bearings
• Speed Pro heavy duty main bearings
Short block price as shown $2,095.00*Short blocks in stock now and ready to ship.
* Plus core charge $800.00 - refundable after we receive and inspect your core.
Component Preparation
All internal parts are de-burred, hand washed & inspected
Pistons, pins and connecting rods - pin fit to specification
Crankshafts - computer balanced to within .2 grams or less per inch.
Crankshaft - oil holes are chamfered
Crankshaft - bearing surfaces are micro polished
Cylinder Block Blueprinting
Align hone checked / machined
Precision honed on a Rottler HP6 with torque plates
Hand de-burred, bolt holes are checked and re-tapped
LPE Blueprint & Professional Assembly
Includes verification to LPE specifications of the following items
• Cylinder bore diameter • Lifter bore diameter
• Cylinder wall taper • Piston skirt taper
• Piston diameter • Piston to wall clearance
• Deck height of block • Piston ring end gap
• Bearing clearances • Rod side clearance
• Crankshaft end play • Bolt torque specifications
Parts included in assembly:
• GM LS1 aluminum block, - 3.900" bore
• Water jacket plugs, oil galley & cam bearings
• Mahle forged aluminum pistons - coated
• Mahle moly file fit rings - 1.5mm, 1.5mm, 3.0mm
• GM LS1 crankshaft
• GM LS1 connecting rods
• Speed Pro heavy duty rod bearings
• Speed Pro heavy duty main bearings
Short block price as shown $2,095.00*Short blocks in stock now and ready to ship.
* Plus core charge $800.00 - refundable after we receive and inspect your core.
12-30-2004, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by PREDATOR-Z
I case you didn't believe me when I said sponsor built shortblocks are on the cheaper side look at this:>>>>>LINGENFELTER
12-30-2004, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by PREDATOR-Z
I case you didn't believe me when I said sponsor built shortblocks are on the cheaper side look at this:>>>>>LINGENFELTER
Brandon
12-30-2004, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by PREDATOR-Z
YES, you are missing that this is a LS1 not SBC.
LS1's are internally ballanced and blueprinted. I must be honed with TRQ plates, all rings and clearances checked and rechecked.
Cam and main bearing changed and specked with crank in place. Crank refurbished and polished then balanced.
To attempt to rebuild an LS1 takes a plathera of tools, and you'll still need a reputable machine shop with LS1 experience.
If you want to gain knowledge then make a deal with the machine shop to observe your first build up. Then only would you have enough knowledge to attempt it on your own.
This is IMO
LS1's are internally ballanced and blueprinted. I must be honed with TRQ plates, all rings and clearances checked and rechecked.
Cam and main bearing changed and specked with crank in place. Crank refurbished and polished then balanced.
To attempt to rebuild an LS1 takes a plathera of tools, and you'll still need a reputable machine shop with LS1 experience.
If you want to gain knowledge then make a deal with the machine shop to observe your first build up. Then only would you have enough knowledge to attempt it on your own.
This is IMO
This thinking that LS1 engines are significantly more complicated and "special" than other motors is a fallacy. Every engine has at least one or two special tools required to assemble it.
If you are proficient in building an engine then LS1's are no more of a challenge than a small block or *gasp* a honda I4. Heads and cam swaps, IMO, are easier than SBC's...less head bolts, no distributor, dry intake, etc.
Where does this "fear" of working on these engines come from?
12-30-2004, 07:45 PM
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"Where does this "fear" of working on these engines come from?"
I also wonder. BUT I have never rebuilt an LS1-or any other aluminum block engine. I have rebuilt several small blocks, 283's, 327's, 307's & 350's, and no full engine rebuilds at all in over 10 years.
I'm more than willing to read what anyone has to say about rebuilding the LS1/LS6 engines; the steps one feels is necessary, the tolerances, align honing (when/why) including align honing for the cam, etc.
I'm not asking anyone to give away any trade secrets, this is purely a quest for knowledge.
Thanks,
Gerald
BTW. I'm pushing 118K miles on mine and considering a rebuild probably about 150K.
I also wonder. BUT I have never rebuilt an LS1-or any other aluminum block engine. I have rebuilt several small blocks, 283's, 327's, 307's & 350's, and no full engine rebuilds at all in over 10 years.
I'm more than willing to read what anyone has to say about rebuilding the LS1/LS6 engines; the steps one feels is necessary, the tolerances, align honing (when/why) including align honing for the cam, etc.
I'm not asking anyone to give away any trade secrets, this is purely a quest for knowledge.
Thanks,
Gerald
BTW. I'm pushing 118K miles on mine and considering a rebuild probably about 150K.