Dual-Springs Kit?
The bottom line? I hate to break away from the "tech" side of this discussion since I think valuable info is being given, but can someone please cut through the fog of all the issues and tell a layman this: Regarless of cost (I assume there are no $1000 LS1 spring kits out there) what is the best spring/retainer/keeper kit I can buy for a 23X/.595 cam'd LSX engine? Are the $2XX kits really as good as the $600 Comp 921 kit? I don't care about the law of diminishing returns, in this situation I am willing to pay twice the price for a 10% better product.
Right now I am
over the spring wars!
Thanks
Right now I am
over the spring wars!Thanks
i had my PP golds independently tested and this is how they cam out:
seat: 143 lbs @ 1.800
open: 363 @ 1.200
coil bind: 1.060
Clearance: .140
spring rate: 367
my cam is a 238/236 .586/.589 112lsa (spec'd a little bigger on the cam doctor), lobes are in between an XE and XE-R.
how they'll hold up is anybody guess but since the introduction of the PP golds i've yet to here of any falures do to the spring itself. and these have been with x2 and x3 XE-R lobed cams. i havent seen any long term tests to see what the open and seat pressure are after say 10k miles though.
seat: 143 lbs @ 1.800
open: 363 @ 1.200
coil bind: 1.060
Clearance: .140
spring rate: 367
my cam is a 238/236 .586/.589 112lsa (spec'd a little bigger on the cam doctor), lobes are in between an XE and XE-R.
how they'll hold up is anybody guess but since the introduction of the PP golds i've yet to here of any falures do to the spring itself. and these have been with x2 and x3 XE-R lobed cams. i havent seen any long term tests to see what the open and seat pressure are after say 10k miles though.
10 Second Club
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 315
Likes: 0
From: VA
Originally Posted by V8er
I hate to break away from the "tech" side of this discussion since I think valuable info is being given, but can someone please cut through the fog of all the issues and tell a layman this: Regarless of cost (I assume there are no $1000 LS1 spring kits out there) what is the best spring/retainer/keeper kit I can buy for a 23X/.595 cam'd LSX engine? Are the $2XX kits really as good as the $600 Comp 921 kit? I don't care about the law of diminishing returns, in this situation I am willing to pay twice the price for a 10% better product.
Right now I am over the spring wars!
Thanks
Right now I am
over the spring wars!Thanks
Buying the 921s at $499+ IMHEO is like paying 5K over sticker on a C5 at one dealer when you can go 25 miles away and get the same car for 2K under..
I can't talk to the longevity of my PPGs yet, but I put 7K hard miles on my Pioneers and will be able to compare these in 7K miles. If I had any idea these springs were not up to snuff I would pay $499 to save my stroker motor to be sure but I did A LOT OF RESEARCH and calling to come to my pick.............check 3 times, build once. Good luck with a choice, I will testing the spring pressures of the ones I removed, I found the new PPGs I installed very near the same #s as stated above.
Originally Posted by V8er
I hate to break away from the "tech" side of this discussion since I think valuable info is being given, but can someone please cut through the fog of all the issues and tell a layman this: Regarless of cost (I assume there are no $1000 LS1 spring kits out there) what is the best spring/retainer/keeper kit I can buy for a 23X/.595 cam'd LSX engine? Are the $2XX kits really as good as the $600 Comp 921 kit? I don't care about the law of diminishing returns, in this situation I am willing to pay twice the price for a 10% better product.
Right now I am over the spring wars!
Thanks
Right now I am
over the spring wars!Thanks
Lock's: Machined locks are superior and are the best choice. The Super 7 was developed in the Cup arena to save engines from dropped valves and that would occur when a spring broke and the lock and retainer would seperate. Stamped steel stuff if probly good enough for mild builds with a max rpm of around 5800.
Retainers: Titanium is the lightest, but for most a steel retainer will work fine. Ti may or may not make a little more hp up stairs due to reduced weight, but lets face it these are hyd roller engines. You can't get reliable valvetrain performance due to the fact you are limited on spring pressure that can be used.
Seal: Personal preference Viton.
Seat's or shim: Aluminum head you MUST have a machined seat on HP mods. If not that spring will find's it's way through the water jacket.
Chris
Originally Posted by Cstraub
Spring's: You want a Super Clean Chrome Silicon that has the seat pressure and open pressure to work with your cam.
Lock's: Machined locks are superior and are the best choice. The Super 7 was developed in the Cup arena to save engines from dropped valves and that would occur when a spring broke and the lock and retainer would seperate. Stamped steel stuff if probly good enough for mild builds with a max rpm of around 5800.
Retainers: Titanium is the lightest, but for most a steel retainer will work fine. Ti may or may not make a little more hp up stairs due to reduced weight, but lets face it these are hyd roller engines. You can't get reliable valvetrain performance due to the fact you are limited on spring pressure that can be used.
Seal: Personal preference Viton.
Seat's or shim: Aluminum head you MUST have a machined seat on HP mods. If not that spring will find's it's way through the water jacket.
Chris
Lock's: Machined locks are superior and are the best choice. The Super 7 was developed in the Cup arena to save engines from dropped valves and that would occur when a spring broke and the lock and retainer would seperate. Stamped steel stuff if probly good enough for mild builds with a max rpm of around 5800.
Retainers: Titanium is the lightest, but for most a steel retainer will work fine. Ti may or may not make a little more hp up stairs due to reduced weight, but lets face it these are hyd roller engines. You can't get reliable valvetrain performance due to the fact you are limited on spring pressure that can be used.
Seal: Personal preference Viton.
Seat's or shim: Aluminum head you MUST have a machined seat on HP mods. If not that spring will find's it's way through the water jacket.
Chris
Last edited by GUNNAR@PATRIOT; Jan 14, 2005 at 10:16 AM.
Originally Posted by Cstraub
Spring's: You want a Super Clean Chrome Silicon that has the seat pressure and open pressure to work with your cam.
Lock's: Machined locks are superior and are the best choice. The Super 7 was developed in the Cup arena to save engines from dropped valves and that would occur when a spring broke and the lock and retainer would seperate. Stamped steel stuff if probly good enough for mild builds with a max rpm of around 5800.
Retainers: Titanium is the lightest, but for most a steel retainer will work fine. Ti may or may not make a little more hp up stairs due to reduced weight, but lets face it these are hyd roller engines. You can't get reliable valvetrain performance due to the fact you are limited on spring pressure that can be used.
Seal: Personal preference Viton.
Seat's or shim: Aluminum head you MUST have a machined seat on HP mods. If not that spring will find's it's way through the water jacket.
Chris
Lock's: Machined locks are superior and are the best choice. The Super 7 was developed in the Cup arena to save engines from dropped valves and that would occur when a spring broke and the lock and retainer would seperate. Stamped steel stuff if probly good enough for mild builds with a max rpm of around 5800.
Retainers: Titanium is the lightest, but for most a steel retainer will work fine. Ti may or may not make a little more hp up stairs due to reduced weight, but lets face it these are hyd roller engines. You can't get reliable valvetrain performance due to the fact you are limited on spring pressure that can be used.
Seal: Personal preference Viton.
Seat's or shim: Aluminum head you MUST have a machined seat on HP mods. If not that spring will find's it's way through the water jacket.
Chris
-U.S. Super Clean Chrome Silicon
Comp 921: Y or N
Patriot Gold: Y or N
PRC Gold: Y or N
-U.S. machined Super 7 locks
Comp 921: Y or N
Patriot Gold: Y or N
PRC Gold: Y or N
-U.S. titanium retainers
Comp 921: Y or N
Patriot Gold: Y or N
PRC Gold: Y or N
-Viton seals
Comp 921: Y or N
Patriot Gold: Y or N
PRC Gold: Y or N
-Seat pressure - claimed spec and consistent between all springs
Comp 921: Y or N
Patriot Gold: Y or N
PRC Gold: Y or N
If all three springs sets get three Ys then it seems we are dealing with price, unless there is yet more to this game that does meet the eye.
Originally Posted by V8er
Great info! So, once again to help the laymen on LS1tech, can anyone answer these?
-U.S. Super Clean Chrome Silicon
Comp 921: Y or N
Patriot Gold: Y or N
PRC Gold: Y or N
-U.S. machined Super 7 locks
Comp 921: Y or N
Patriot Gold: Y or N
PRC Gold: Y or N
-U.S. titanium retainers
Comp 921: Y or N
Patriot Gold: Y or N
PRC Gold: Y or N
-Viton seals
Comp 921: Y or N
Patriot Gold: Y or N
PRC Gold: Y or N
-Seat pressure - claimed spec and consistent between all springs
Comp 921: Y or N
Patriot Gold: Y or N
PRC Gold: Y or N
If all three springs sets get three Ys then it seems we are dealing with price, unless there is yet more to this game that does meet the eye.
-U.S. Super Clean Chrome Silicon
Comp 921: Y or N
Patriot Gold: Y or N
PRC Gold: Y or N
-U.S. machined Super 7 locks
Comp 921: Y or N
Patriot Gold: Y or N
PRC Gold: Y or N
-U.S. titanium retainers
Comp 921: Y or N
Patriot Gold: Y or N
PRC Gold: Y or N
-Viton seals
Comp 921: Y or N
Patriot Gold: Y or N
PRC Gold: Y or N
-Seat pressure - claimed spec and consistent between all springs
Comp 921: Y or N
Patriot Gold: Y or N
PRC Gold: Y or N
If all three springs sets get three Ys then it seems we are dealing with price, unless there is yet more to this game that does meet the eye.
2. Y
3. N (Titanium retainers are made out of country, specs checked by Patriot)
4. Y
5. Y
Last edited by GUNNAR@PATRIOT; Jan 14, 2005 at 03:45 PM.
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I got a set of heads used that came with patroits springs new.I checked all the springs
on my tester while checking out the heads.All the springs were within 3lbs at 1.800,
I was impressed,the locks aren't to shabby either.
on my tester while checking out the heads.All the springs were within 3lbs at 1.800,
I was impressed,the locks aren't to shabby either.
Let me add one thing about Super Clean. That process was developed by the Japanese in Kobi Japan. It has been licensed to a few other companies in the world but it is not made in the USA. Also the 3 large players in the spring market that supply alot of the aftermaket valve springs have plants in several countries including the USA. So the springs could be made off shore. Super clean Vanadium Steel is expensive material. It would not make sense to buy the best material and build sub standard parts. . .of course my industry sometimes does not make sense.
Chris
Chris
Teching In
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Valve Spring Development My only advice is that you consider if the supplier you buy form has the ability to test the springs b4 they sell them.
I know Crane and I believe Comp both have the ability to
do testing for performance and duribility on their own in-house Spintron test equipment. That would give me more confidence in the product.
I know Crane and I believe Comp both have the ability to
do testing for performance and duribility on their own in-house Spintron test equipment. That would give me more confidence in the product.
PRC Spring Kit:
1. Y
2. N
3. Y
4. Y
5. Y
EVERY COMPONENT of the PRC spring kit is made in the United States. There have been ZERO failures with the factory locks.
Trevor
Texas Speed & Performance
1. Y
2. N
3. Y
4. Y
5. Y
EVERY COMPONENT of the PRC spring kit is made in the United States. There have been ZERO failures with the factory locks.
Trevor
Texas Speed & Performance
__________________
Gunnar and Trevor,
thank you for coming to the table with the product information on your spring kits.
Please understand that I am not trying to poke sticks and stir up trouble for no reason. For the average LS1 owner (myself included) who is looking to upgrade his or her vehicle it can be very difficult to know who to trust, which parts are best and where to buy them. After 15 years of upgrading my own cars I have seen countless situations where a product with a big name, backed by a large marketing budget was actually inferior to the grass-roots type, enthusiast produced part. Perhpas this valve spring kit war is a similar situation? On the other hand I have also purchased parts that were truely a "you get what you pay for" situation.
If only there was a way for these mfg's to prove who's spring kits are best. It seems like the Comp 921s are well proven by LG and other race type guys but if I am not mistaken they have also been on the market longer than the PP and PRC product. I would be that there are more 921s going up and down in heads around the country than any other LS1 dual spring kit and I don't think there have been many (any?) reported failures?
thank you for coming to the table with the product information on your spring kits.
Please understand that I am not trying to poke sticks and stir up trouble for no reason. For the average LS1 owner (myself included) who is looking to upgrade his or her vehicle it can be very difficult to know who to trust, which parts are best and where to buy them. After 15 years of upgrading my own cars I have seen countless situations where a product with a big name, backed by a large marketing budget was actually inferior to the grass-roots type, enthusiast produced part. Perhpas this valve spring kit war is a similar situation? On the other hand I have also purchased parts that were truely a "you get what you pay for" situation.
If only there was a way for these mfg's to prove who's spring kits are best. It seems like the Comp 921s are well proven by LG and other race type guys but if I am not mistaken they have also been on the market longer than the PP and PRC product. I would be that there are more 921s going up and down in heads around the country than any other LS1 dual spring kit and I don't think there have been many (any?) reported failures?
TECH Resident
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 881
Likes: 1
It is interesting to define "valve spring failure". Breaking is certainly a failure. However loosing stiffness and causing valve float is also a failure. And inconsistent pressures between springs is not a failure, but a QC issue.
In street use, I don't think many people with replacement springs check the pressure (I do it on my race car every 3-4 weekends). And I think many don't check the pressures when they install them.
How do these various springs compare? The expensive springs ($250-600 set for the spring) all lose pressure if you run them hard (lots of lift, aggressive ramp, lots of revs). However they come with very accurate matched spring pressures right out of the box (what the spec says is what you get). And the loss of pressure comes with extreme use.
David
In street use, I don't think many people with replacement springs check the pressure (I do it on my race car every 3-4 weekends). And I think many don't check the pressures when they install them.
How do these various springs compare? The expensive springs ($250-600 set for the spring) all lose pressure if you run them hard (lots of lift, aggressive ramp, lots of revs). However they come with very accurate matched spring pressures right out of the box (what the spec says is what you get). And the loss of pressure comes with extreme use.
David
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,066
Likes: 0
From: Sunny San Diego
Well I finally got my heads, so time to order a spring kit. My current set on my AS head are Dual-Comps. And I would like to stick with them.
But they are expensive. If it wasn't for the price, would you buy them or just go with Patriot's?
But they are expensive. If it wasn't for the price, would you buy them or just go with Patriot's?
